Job

Transcript from the podcast (so sorry for the spelling mistakes)

Wildfire podcast is an extension of Wildfire Ministries, an organization that has a focus of igniting men and women of God into a deeper discipleship with Christ, instilling them with a passion to radically and relentlessly pursue Christ wherever that leads, that God's truth will spread like a wildfire.

Hello everybody!

Welcome back, it's been a while.

If you know, you know.

People know what just happened there, but other people are going to be so confused and wonder why you did what you just did.

But that's okay, we move on, we move on.

Peter, where have we been?

What's going on?

It's all your fault, basically.

It's all Peter's fault, it is.

It's all your fault.

It was my fault in the summer, and then when we got back to the uni schedule, you were always sick or something.

You're too frail, look, that's the problem.

Basically what we're trying to say is it's, yeah, it just hasn't worked out.

We've got to say it hasn't worked out.

Every time we've tried to go and record a podcast, some things came up, some things got talked about.

Yeah, we're recording, just checking the audio.

Because we all know what happened the last time we did this.

We recorded the full podcast with dad for ages and then got to the end and found out that, yeah, we didn't record the audio.

But no, we're not going to make any more excuses because that's, yeah, we'll be better hopefully.

And have more weekly episodes from now on.

We'll be better.

Yes, so that's that.

But what have you been up to, Luke?

Nothing much, I tell you what I need to say.

I said we were going to talk about this is my complete inability to say names, to remember names, to acknowledge names.

For example, this morning was just an absolute tragedy whenever we were going for coffee.

So you didn't hear about whenever I arrived first, there's this guy that our youth coordinator Daniel was talking to.

And then I said, oh yeah, it's Paul, isn't it?

And he's like, Phil.

So that's when it started.

I was like, right, okay, that's, you know what I mean?

It's not that bad.

I don't really know the guy.

And then we moved on and then we're speaking with Daniel, okay, our youth coordinator, like we're having coffee with him.

And I said, I call him David.

Twice.

Twice.

It's like, you know what I mean?

And he's like correcting me and I'm like, no, it's definitely, it's definitely David.

So that's just me, Peter.

I need to work on that.

Yeah, so please forgive look friendly lapses and judgment or logic or anything in today's podcast.

Yeah, I know.

I'm very tired and I'm scared about what's going to happen, but hopefully we'll be fine.

And the book of Job, which is a very easy topic to talk about.

Exactly.

Exactly.

That's what you'll be championing it.

So what about you?

Anything worth mentioning?

I was just working over the summer, a bit of lifeguarding and-

Saving lives.

Sometimes.

How many lives did you save over the summer?

None.

Great.

Yeah.

Prevention is the main thing.

Giving people warning.

Someone had been drowning, you would have saved them.

Actually, you definitely have told me stories about a few-

I've assisted people.

Yeah, a few incidents.

And then I was working for Coleswick Coast Airing as well, with Mali Lighting.

I did a bit of coast airing, so that was good fun.

And is there any other shout outs that you want to-

I hear you have to give people-

Oh yeah, Strand Millers Technology and Design Department.

Man, we're so famous, people are just looking at shout outs on this podcast.

So enough about us and all our jazz.

What the heck are we talking about?

You just mentioned it.

Yeah.

So today we're going to talk about the Book of Job.

And well, it's kind of part two in our suffering talk.

Remember, you want to talk more about that, Luke?

Yes, that's true.

I should talk about that.

So originally what we did, we did the Book of Habakkuk.

And then what we found is that really talks about suffering quite a lot.

And so that thrust us in to the whole area of suffering.

And especially when it's poignant more than ever in a worldwide pandemic where it's been, suffering's been brought to the forefront of conversations.

So we decided to do Habakkuk.

And then that was our book, our Bible book as a foundation.

And then we decided to do something experiential, which was interview with my dad, Mark, on suffering and his cancer journey.

And then today, we are going back to the Bible book, which is Job on suffering.

And then we're going to complete it and top it all off with why does God allow suffering?

Question mark and actually, you know what I mean, hopefully address and answer some of the questions that we all have.

So yeah, we're on the Job part, which is going to be like the third part of a four part series, basically, of our suffering.

Yeah.

Or what our views are on it.

And for those of you who have knowledge of Job, you'll know it's quite a long book and quite a complex book.

Lots of Hebrew poetry and dialogue, and it's almost like a mini epic.

So it's safe to say in 20 minutes, we're not going to cover it in as much details, perhaps some of the smaller books we've done, like Habakkuk.

Yes.

So instead of going chapter by chapter for all 42 chapters, we're just going to, first of all, outline the structure, the context of where the book takes place, some of the characters, and a basically overview of the story.

And then finally, we're going to look at the main philosophical and theological moral arguments put forward to explain why suffering takes place in the story of Job.

So we're going to take a look at four of those arguments, and then finally just close with some lessons that we Christians can learn from this.

So all in all, a very straightforward, easy episode.

I really threw this all on Peter, to be honest with you, so he's going to be...

I feel like I'll try and aid as best I can.

Yes.

But I've got the blessed role of just basically asking you questions.

Well, you have more experience with suffering, though.

Yes.

Because you get made fun of a lot.

Exactly.

That was of no relevance whatsoever.

That was more...

That's right.

You're just slagging me off.

No relevance to suffering.

What a good segue into suffering.

Let's just begin.

Tell me the context of this book.

So the context begins as in the land of Oz is where it takes place.

That's where Job lives.

We don't really know.

I tried to look at Google and a few commentaries and stuff.

People aren't really 100% sure, so I'm not going to give a definitive answer where Oz was, but most scholars reckon it was somewhere south or southwest of where Palestine is, so somewhere in the Arabian desert.

So that's roughly our location.

But then that means it's not in Israel.

So most of the Old Testament is the story of Israel and the Israelites.

So this makes Job quite unique in that he's not an Israelite.

He's someone from outside the sphere and influence of that time, or that tribe, sorry.

So it's like Ruth?

Yes.

Well, Ruth was a Moabite, but then she was brought into the land.

Eventually with Mariam Boaz and stuff.

Whereas Job, I believe none of his story takes place in Israel.

It's all in Oz as far as we're aware.

I'll throw a 10 second grenade in, but you don't have to answer this, okay?

Already ruling in this context.

But obviously people have said Oz is fictional.

Yes.

Not fact.

And the Book of Job is more so...

Oh, allegorical.

Yes, an allegorical narrative.

But sure, people say that about a lot of things, to be honest with you.

They're like, yeah, people just say, oh, it's metaphorical.

Yes.

But yeah, you don't have to address all of that or answer all of them.

Well, I was doing a short response again.

I'm sure the Bible Project do a few podcasts on that, although I think they actually wouldn't have given a definitive response either.

I would say, I would more lean to the fact that this did take place, more so because if we treat all Bible stories like that, or the ones that don't definitively, we have historical evidence for, then where do we end up?

Half the Bible will be allegorical.

Yeah.

So I think it's safer to go on the side of this actually happened, and then if it's allegorical, what does that change?

We get more benefit of treating it like a real story.

So you've got that this is a literal story, or this is an allegorical story.

Either way, the principle, the theological teaching, God's message, remains the same.

But because of our Biblical hermeneutic, or the way that we approach the Bible, me and Peter, we say that it's simply, it's easier, and more of a consistent approach to simply say that this is a literal story.

There's simply no grounds to say that it's not.

Then you could start doing that by every story, which people seem to do.

Well, not every, but quite a lot of the stories that don't have necessarily, like, blatant historical facts, that are demonstrated just from historians and stuff.

Sorry for that digression, Peter.

Well, that leads us on to the next point.

That's what I was going for.

Yeah, of course.

There's a theory that Job is, in fact, King Jobab of Edom, which is from Genesis 36, which is just a theory, but that somewhat maybe can access to the rest of the Bible.

It's just an idea, it's just something to throw out there.

I don't know if I necessarily believe that or not.

There's not really that much evidence on it.

Yeah, no real bearing of what we're going to be talking about.

Yeah, exactly.

And then there's the structure of Job.

You get chapters one and two, which is almost like a prologue, sets up the story, the context, kind of like we're doing here.

Chapters three through 37, which is a lot of chapters, is Job and his friends having a new dialogue.

It reads almost a bit like a play.

I mean, you did English a little bit more than me, look, so maybe you could speak to that if you want to.

But it's a lot of dense Hebrew poetry and stuff.

It's quite heavy reading.

Yeah, and it's ancient literature as well.

So I don't think my contemporary English class is going to help me here, to be honest with you, maybe.

That's all right.

We'll see.

And then chapters 38 through 41 is God's response to Job and his friends and the whole question of suffering.

And chapter 42 is just an epilogue, and it's just basically the author wrapping up the story in high notes.

So look, could you give us a quick summary of the story of Job, for those who don't know?

I can't Peter, I can't indeed.

Okay, so we start off a little bit of context as Peter just addressed about like location, background, who we're talking about, Job.

We get insight that he was a righteous man that could stand before God, innocent.

And then all of a sudden we get thrust into this divine courtroom, so like into these heavenly courts.

And we see an interaction between Satan and God.

And Satan basically says to God that your servant Job, who you're so proud of, is only righteous because of the good things that you give him, because of the blessing that you give him.

And that if you were to strip that, take that all away, then all of a sudden he would basically no longer be righteous.

He would curse you.

He would curse you.

He would reject you.

And so this is presented before God.

And God says, God gives sovereign approval, permission for Satan to then go attack Job.

And so then...

He says you cannot take his life.

Yes.

That's the one thing God says.

And then the next stage is that Satan then attacks Job with everything except taking Job's life.

So you see that Job's children, household, his livestock, occupation, status, everything that you could think of.

And there was a lot there.

Job was a very rich guy.

I think he said he had 7,000 sheep or something like that.

For his time, he would have been one of the most influential and richest men in the land.

Yeah.

So we then, once we bypass all the suffering that's taken place, we're then giving insight into three friends that come and visit Job.

And they basically act as just as conversations that are trying to understand what's taken place, trying to give explanations, justification for why the suffering has taken place in Job's life.

And each time we see like a rebuttal from Job saying like why the friends are wrong.

And then we see a fourth friend, he comes and he also says something, but says something a little bit different.

You touched on that later as opposed to now.

Yes.

And then like the cherry on top of the cake builds to the climax.

The best to last is God's dialogue with Job.

And we see insight into that.

So yeah, it's pretty epic story, but that's a summary.

Yeah.

And the Divine Courtroom scene is quite...

If you're not really used to reading the Bible as the ancient Hebrews would, I think it's kind of far away from our understanding, because it's the idea that God is there and it's a literal courtroom, the way we would imagine it.

And Satan walks up to God and asks some questions.

It's not...

It's just quite different, I mean, from my understanding of what might just be my understanding of the Bible.

Definitely wouldn't be a thought that would have came into your head prior to reading this passage.

Like, it's definitely a thought that's instilled by this passage alone.

Like, to me, you know what I mean?

You think of Satan being cast down to earth and you never think of him going before into heaven again and approaching God, the holiness of God, but very interesting.

And then I'll just...

I'll be quick, another ten seconds, if you like, to say, look.

It's just that, can we imagine Satan having to do this for us?

Or some of his demons come up and talk about our lives, like, I've looked at your servant, he is righteous.

But if you took everything away from him, is that...

or at the minute, looks not a threat, so he doesn't need to march up to God and say, I've looked at Luke and he's righteous.

Is that something Satan can do with us?

Or are we not really providing him much of a threat?

That's just a wee side alley.

A wee side alley, a wee practical application there.

But we actually are going to talk about that there a little bit more in the suffering episode.

Well, you didn't know that, but you know that.

I do, I do.

Because that's what I'm going to bring.

Yeah, sorry for spoiling that.

Okay, keep going.

So the way we're going to talk about it is just the four arguments presented, like I said at the start, for the philosophical, moral, theological, whatever you want to call it, the reasons for the suffering.

So the first one is by Job himself.

So Job's argument is that he is innocent, he hasn't sinned against God.

The implication of this is his suffering is not divine justice.

And the conclusion then is that God doesn't run the world according to justice, or God is unjust.

Those are kind of the two options from what Job's saying.

So fascinating.

So if you're to summarize all of Job's thoughts, that's the conclusions.

So God is unjust, or he doesn't run the world according to justice, he just lets it do whatever, which is probably what a lot of people today think.

Like, as soon as some, as the typical movie scene anyway, where something bad happens to someone, they say, why would you do this, God?

Assuming from that, that he's unjust.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, what's argument 2?

So argument 2 is from Job's friends.

So they say God is just, so the implication is that God does run the world according to justice, and therefore in their minds, the only option is Job must have sinned.

That's what happened.

So Job sinned, and then God's just, so he's gonna punish Job.

Okay, so Job's in a place, and it's interesting because Job is the one, his vantage point is the one going through suffering.

Yes.

And as you said, that's a lot of what people think, that either God is simply on just because of my situation, my circumstance.

There's literally no other alternative.

Whenever I self-reflect, God is simply on just here in the way that I am being treated, or that simply there is justice as an abstract, but God's simply not implementing it or enforcing it.

And then the friends are like, they reject that of Job, and they say, no, God is so cheap.

And so you have another category of people who are like, no, it's your sin, it's your faith.

That's the explanation.

Which you will see occasionally from some Christians, if they see a Christian suffering, they'll say, oh, he must have sinned in some way that's private that we don't know about.

Which again, I'm wrong, perfect, so everyone probably has sinned.

But the question is whether that is what's led to the suffering.

And they're right in the sense that it is our sin, collectively as humanity and our sin as individuals, that has made suffering a reality.

Yes, but they're talking about it.

But you don't want to personalise it.

Exactly.

So like, yes, that diagnosis of cancer is directly linked to this sin of you lying to that person.

Which is quite a dangerous game to play because you're almost playing God.

Yeah, extremely dangerous.

Because it gives you no grounds for, like no biblical grounds whatsoever for people to do that.

Yeah, so that's argument two.

Argument three is from the fourth friend that comes along, Elihu.

So he comes along near the end of the, I think I mentioned the chapters earlier, he comes along a bit near the end of the book, and he says that God is just, so he agrees with the second friend.

The implication is also that God runs the world according to justice, however he has a separate conclusion.

His conclusion is that suffering may be a warning to avoid future sin because it builds character.

So suffering acts as a deterrent to prevent you.

Yeah, to put it in an illustration, it's like sending yourself to prison for five years, and then letting them out and says, okay, now you know what prison is like, don't sin or else you'll end up back there.

That's the long lines of what Elihu is saying.

So he agrees that God is just and all those things, but it's like here, there's a bit of a warning of what could happen if you do sin.

Right.

And it builds your character so that you won't want to do that by threatening you.

Interesting.

But then he also says don't accuse God of being unjust.

So the good thing about Elihu is he's very strong and he says like God is just.

He knows that, which is something at least.

Yeah.

He's recognizing the complexity of what they're talking about.

But he's also saying there's a definitive line where you never diminish or try and destroy the character of God.

That remains the same in this.

So yeah, that's good.

Yeah.

And then do you have some verses for us to read?

Look, so this is the fourth argument about God's response.

Okay.

So you have all these friends and they're bringing their arguments.

And then we see God of the universe, that's the one who created everything.

The judge of everything comes in and says the following.

So this is Job 38.

Who is this that darkens council by words without knowledge?

Dress for action like a man, I will question you and you make it known to me.

Where were you when I led the foundation of the earth?

Tell me if you have understanding.

Who determined its measurements?

Surely you know, or who stretched the line upon it?

So this begins these passages of just rhetorical questions.

So God is asking these questions, but he's not expecting Job to answer it, nor does he want Job's response, because they're questions where like, like who do you think you are Job?

So Job, despite everything that he's lost, okay, God comes in not with this sympathy, but rather God comes in questioning Job, saying, why are you questioning me and my character?

Why are you saying that I am unjust?

And he puts Job into your perspective and says, like, where were you when I created the universe?

Where were you when I created the earth?

Where were you when I created you?

Where were you whenever I imposed and instilled justice and love and these abstract things that you've literally no knowledge of, no understanding of, yet you have the audacity to challenge me?

And I believe he's actually also talking to the friends here as well, who said some true things, He said even despite those true things that God is just, which is true, all their other points, he said, why do you have authority to even talk about these things?

You know absolutely nothing compared to what I do, because I laid the foundations of the earth.

So God's response is basically that God chose Job, but also his friends were working under the assumption that they had enough perspective in the matter to give an argument for suffering.

This is the same assumption shared by atheists, agnostics and even some Christians today when addressing this problem of suffering.

Job doesn't have a universal vantage point, so cannot judge God, neither do we.

It's quite simple when you get down to it.

Why can humanity has been bothered by this problem of suffering for as long as we've been around, and we've never had a proper answer, so what expects us to have the answer now?

We're not in charge of the suffering, so we're not outside of the suffering, so why can we give an answer that's without doubt, without shadow of a doubt true, except for relying on God?

Yeah, exactly.

So often and not, you find that people reject God, and even they may say they believe in God, but they still reject God in their lifestyle, and then whenever suffering comes along, they then insert God so they can put blame somewhere.

Yeah, that's a good point.

So you'll find that people do that a lot.

I was going to say something from CS.

Lewis, but I'm going to refrain from the needs of self-control and not do it.

Okay, save it for next time.

Yeah, we might come back to it at this time, but we'll see.

So and then just another big caveat is the book also gives examples of behemoth and the viathan, which are some big massive dinosaurs that used to roam the earth.

Some people say Christians don't believe in dinosaurs.

There they are in the Bible.

One of them is a water dinosaur.

Yeah, exactly.

That's definitely not the technical thing.

One of them is the water dinosaur.

I don't know why that was even relevant, to be honest.

It's just cool.

Yeah, but again, the example from that is just these massive creatures.

We know Behemoth was a massive dinosaur.

I think possibly one of the largest.

So it's because this huge animal, and I have authority over it, I created it.

Why do you think you have any responsibility or any knowledge of anything when you know nothing?

Yeah, like this is an...

Okay, yeah, because humans place themselves in a position of supremacy over animals.

And then God is literally saying, like, look at this animal and it's power and it's strength and it's majesty.

And look at your insignificance in contrast to that.

Okay, now put yourself in a bit of perspective to me, God of the universe.

Yeah.

Like, you feel inferior whenever you face this animal.

You know what I mean?

So...

I was listening to an excerpt from a Joe Rogan podcast the other day, and he was talking about how religious people trust the Bible.

I think it was back in 2015, so I don't know if he's changed his mind in this sense, but he said about how religious people trust the Bible or other religious books.

But what's he trusting in?

He's trusting in the scientific equipment to measure the universe.

So he's also trusting in something.

It's just something different.

Everyone...

he just likes...

From his perspective, he's just the one in charge of what he trusts, whereas us, we're giving our trust over to God.

He's in charge of our lives.

Everyone trusts in something.

It's just what you're going to put your trust in.

So it's either trusting Joe Rogan or trusting God.

Yes, or trusting man.

Trusting any man.

Yeah, Joe Rogan was just an epitome of man.

Not an epitome, just an example.

So yes, brilliant.

Will we summarize?

So we can summarize with just a few lessons we can learn from this then?

Yeah, so in this book, what I found is we don't always get the answer, at least Job, and us as humanity, whenever we're faced with suffering or any difficult circumstance, we don't always get the answers that we want.

But it is important to acknowledge that we do have the answers that we need.

That is to say that we have God's word, we have the Spirit of God that lives within us.

We can have communion with God, pray with God, use our wisdom and understanding to simply see what God actually says about suffering.

And we should begin with that first.

We should actually have an understanding of what does the Bible say about suffering before we start asking other questions or going to blame God, because our answer might be there already.

So it's important to acknowledge that, but what we see in the Book of Job is God is sovereign and that suffering only comes after God allows it.

So God has to first allow suffering to take place in our lives, which then leads to us understanding that if God is allowing us, we must have a trust and a faith that God is allowing suffering to develop our character, to grow us and to achieve the ultimate purpose in life, which is to know God and grow closer to him.

And it's a sad reality in a sinful world that suffering seems to be a necessity, a necessity to do that.

In order to get close to God, we seem to need suffering because it acts as a mirror that shows our own inability, et cetera.

But that's getting into the next podcast show.

So, yeah, noticing God's serenity here, and also putting in place another lesson is, always start with a humble posture.

Always start with, you're in the wrong, and it's not God.

And always think of that there passage.

I think Job 38 is a good passage.

Whenever you're questioning God, whenever you think God is unjust, the circumstance that you're going through is unjust.

Read Job 38.

Yeah.

And another recite to throw in there is one from Genesis.

It says, we will not judge of all the earth, do what is right.

That's who we have our faith in.

So it's like, again, some of those points you talked about, it's have faith in God with the little things, so you can practice your faith, and then you'll have better faith when something big comes along.

Whereas if you just neglect God in your daily life, say you're a Christian, you just neglect God with everything else, then why would you expect to have all this great faith when a great challenge comes along, like Mark's cancer journey, for example?

Something like that happens to you, how are you going to cope with it if you can't cope with God and having faith in Him with small things?

Yeah, and we will talk about, there is more detail that can be given to suffering and what you're going through.

There is reasons and there is justification, there is explanations that do help bring clarity to a person going through suffering.

There is things that do help gain an eternal perspective.

But to say, we simply must trust God.

That won't the judge of the end.

It is that simple.

And although it's simple, it's the most difficult.

But if you're going through suffering, and then we can talk pastoral about what you'd say to a person going through suffering, you might not say this, but we're talking here by just the book of Job, and just talking about the Bible in general, not a personal circumstance.

But it simply is the suffering that you're going through.

Won't the judge of the universe do what is right?

Isn't God in control?

And suffering really tests that, and asks that question in a very poignant way.

And the most important thing is eternal salvation.

So believe in Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

It's important to have your eternal soul saved.

And then what happens to your spiritual body?

Yes, in the short term it's very painful and could be awful for you.

Yeah, the physical body.

The physical body.

But it's your eternal salvation.

It's the most important thing.

And we're giving warning against hearing this earth like rust, moth.

Everything gets destroyed as a new volume.

Yeah, so I'll finish with a few thoughts that that kind of leads on to.

Yeah, something else I just want to throw in was, I heard from a pastor in America, Doug Wilson, when he was talking about the book of Job.

It's not really separate.

It's separate to suffering, but it's just something else.

In today's council culture, he said about how Job was told to apologize for something by his friends, for something that he never did.

So his response was, don't apologize if you haven't done anything wrong.

And Job was right not to apologize because he didn't do anything wrong.

And if you're interested in Greek mythology, it kind of relates a bit to the story of Oedipus.

But again, I'm not going to bother bringing everyone down with that today.

And then just finally, have a larger view of God and a smaller view of man, which again, you thought would have a humble response, a humble posture.

And finally, we can reflect critically.

I said finally like three times there, sorry.

Everyone's getting their hopes up.

And finally, for the last time, we can reflect critically on our suffering.

Because sometimes it is an act of judgment from God.

Again, we'll talk about that more next week.

But God is not answerable to us.

And what we know for sure is that he is our best interest in mind.

And in the end, we will reign with him in the New Earth, where there will be no more suffering.

So that's everything for this week.

Finally, guys.

Had to.

Yeah.

We just want to lay this like this is a springboard, like most of our conversations, for you to delve deeper into this topic.

Go and search for yourselves.

But hopefully that has instilled some interest, so we did some thoughts and provided some clarity.

And we will see you next time on the podcast.

See you later.