Titus

Transcript from the podcast (so sorry for the spelling mistakes)

Wildfire podcast is an extension of Wildfire Ministries, an organization that has a focus of igniting men and women of God into a deeper discipleship with Christ, instilling them with a passion to radically and relentlessly pursue Christ wherever that leads, that God's truth will spread like a wildfire.

Welcome back to the Wildfire podcast.

I'm joined once again with Luke Taylor.

Hello.

And we're going to be talking this week about, can you lose your salvation?

So this is something I was actually asked about five hours ago.

We'd already decided to do this topic last week, but I was asked five hours ago, I was giving someone a lift and she just asked me, can you lose salvation?

So I was able to, it was my wee sister and I was just kind of surprised to hear that from her.

So it was just an example as to why this question is so important.

Lots of people were wondering about it.

And I'm sure, Luke, you've probably been asked about it before, have you?

Yeah.

It's a topical issue.

Everyone's, you know what I mean?

It's shocking how many people ask it, right?

How many people ask the question?

So why do people struggle with this?

Do you think?

I don't know.

I think, first of all, it probably comes from a misunderstanding of what the gospel actually is.

It's true par.

So how would you define the gospel, Luke?

How would you explain the gospel to people?

Yeah.

So it is such a frequent question.

And I think one of the biggest problems at the center of it all is that misunderstanding.

And I think whenever you clarify the gospel and its par, then you will be able to give people an assurance and a confidence.

At least that's what I found in my own life.

Establishing what the gospel meant gives me confidence to answer this question.

So just to give you a little bit of insight of how we're going to approach, we're going to lay a foundation.

We're going to address some of the symptomatic problems of why people ask these questions.

And then we're going to get to the crux of the answer at the end.

So our hope is that you should have clarity and we'll be able to answer the question yourself before we even get to it.

That's at least our attempt and that's what it's going to be.

So the gospel, how do we define that?

Well, number one is we need to have an acknowledgement of sin first and foremost.

This is a factor that we cannot bypass as it is permeated absolutely every single person's life.

So we are sinners and there's the idea of original sin and the scriptures that we have to support this are many.

1 Corinthians 15, Romans 5, Job 31, Psalm 51.

For example, in Romans 5 it says, Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.

Or Psalm 51, in sin my mother did conceive me.

In sin my mother did conceive me.

So these are all verses that talk about how we are completely and inherently evil.

Out of us comes nothing that is good.

And so it's that idea that that's a principle understanding that as soon as you were born, you were sinful.

Okay, so Peter, can you add to that?

Yeah, I think it's a hard thing for people to grasp that they're fundamentally evil.

I think the society is pushing the other way and saying, oh no, like everyone's good.

Like it's actually the extremes are the bad people.

And most people are actually quite good.

But the Bible says otherwise, it's like everyone is a pretty terrible human being.

And I think if we're all honest with ourselves, that's where we come to.

And the Bible tells us, and in Isaiah 65, it says all our righteous acts are like filthy rags.

So even the things we consider to be good are terrible.

Romans 3.23 says, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Romans 3.10 says, there is no one righteous, no not one.

Romans 7.18 says, I know that nothing good lives in me.

That is, out of the flesh comes no good thing, for I know what I must do, I do not do.

And what I do not want to do, I do.

So even the Apostle Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament, still struggled against that desire of the flesh.

And then from this, we realize that, since we have nothing good, we need to be empty of ourselves.

We need to just rid ourselves of all sin and redeemed, but we can't redeem ourselves because we're sinful.

Yes.

So how would you, how do we get the teams out of it?

What's the next step?

What's the climax?

What's the most exciting part?

Well, first of all, the double negative, I need to just get, cause me and Peter were discussing about this.

So Paul says, what I must not do, I do.

And what I must do, I don't do.

Did I say that wrong or was I okay?

No, I don't.

Again, we were talking about this, how I'm so bad with double negatives.

So it just, that was for me mostly clarification for many, many other people out there who might be like me.

So we've established that what we are is sinful, and then the nature of something will determine who it is.

So what and who we are is sinful, and how again, we need salvation.

And this is the next part of the gospel.

One of the most mind boggling concepts and realities that humans will have to grasp, but one of the most fruitful and amazing ones.

So, verses that we have that talk about salvation, 1 Corinthians 5, that he, that is Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God.

Jesus, who knew no sin, who was not, he was not in the category of what and who, he was not, his nature was not to be sinful, but he became sin so that we might become righteousness, that we who were inherently evil might rid ourselves of those and fill ourselves with love of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

You've also got 2 Peter 3, that God desires that no man should perish.

You've got John 3.16, for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Titus 2.11, for Christ offered salvation to all men.

John 3.17, for God did not send his son to condemn the world, but that through him the world might be saved.

Romans 5a, that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Now, you may say they are a heckload amount of scriptures, but to be honest with you, they're one of the most amazing scriptures you'll ever hear.

So we just wanted to give you loads of them that you can go back and listen to you and just apply to your own life and just sit and actually soak in that and understand how amazing those verses actually are.

And they are just a few, they are just a few, they are just the tip of the iceberg.

So that's the motive of God, is that he wants to establish a relationship with you.

And then this is then expressed through the life of Jesus Christ to save us from our sinful nature.

Okay?

And then that then leads, once you establish a relationship with God, it's sanctification, whereby every day we're being conformed to the image of God.

Romans 8, Romans 5 talks about these things.

So that's the salvation, what and who we are, our need for salvation, how that has been provided for us.

That is the divine provision waiting for human appropriation.

Yeah.

I like the way you used the Christian swear word there, look, heck.

You kept it very PG, so we don't have to work this podcast as explicit content.

Thank you for doing that.

So the next stage is, now that we know the gospel, we all have to face the point in our lives where we respond to that.

So look at that, you and I have both responded in the past, but it's also a daily thing, isn't it?

So we need to respond to this, and the response is faith.

So that leads us on the point too, which is respond and reflect.

So response, for as well as faith, it's Romans 1, for I am not ashamed of the gospel.

Ephesians 2, for it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and that none of yourselves is the gift of God.

And Acts 16, I think that's Paul in the Philippian jailer, is that right?

I'm on trigger by the narrative.

Okay, I think that's maybe where it comes from.

He definitely says it in that narrative anyway, but it's-

Well, I back you.

Okay, well, it's believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

So that's, like we talk about, the object of our faith is Christ.

And also Hebrews 11 talks about it as well.

Yes, so that again, that principle idea of faith.

Hebrews 11 is, for faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the belief of what is not seen.

So that is what you need to exercise.

You need to recognize what and who you are, and then you need to again, confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that God raised him from the dead.

Romans 10, nine.

So again, the importance of faith.

But also another dynamic of this, so this is point number two, is not only responding, but actually reflecting, okay?

Because there are people who believe they are saved when they're not.

That is a category that does exist.

And James talks about how just as a body without spirit is dead, so is faith without works.

Okay?

So faith will birth works.

Works needs faith.

Both are synonymous.

You can't have one without the other.

So if you think faith is the seed, and from that seed will come inevitably the tree, which is the works.

So faith and then from that, the works.

So you can't have one without the other.

So whenever you reflect your own life, is there works that demonstrate your faith and your relationship with God?

If there's no works, do you have a relationship with God?

And these are just questions that you can ask yourself and you can answer.

Or perhaps you do have works.

You're saying, yes, look, I do have works, but is that actually reflective of faith, true faith in Jesus Christ?

Or are you like a Pharisee with all these, you know what I mean?

What is it?

They're washed on the outside, but not the inside.

So it's that whole, that's the whole idea.

So the way we want to approach this is there's an analogy is it's not about, if you think of over and over again, the Bible talks about this being a race, run your race with perseverance, endurance, Hebrews 12, Philippians 4.

So it's not about whether you can actually become disqualified from that race.

And by that we mean lose your salvation.

It's about whether you actually qualified in the race in the first place.

Okay.

Do you get that?

I think that makes sense.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

Elaborate then.

Okay.

Well, I quite like the example.

There's a guy, Professor Gooding, and probably a lot of people will say the best Bible teacher of his generation.

And he had quite a good illustration for it.

It's similar to the race one, but it's actually based on what Jesus talks about.

He talks about the narrow way and the broad way.

So the broad way leads to hell, the narrow way leads to heaven.

And he said, it's not about when you go onto the road, it's if you're on the actual road.

So same idea.

So it's not, oh, I was saved on the 4th of July, 2004.

It's like, that doesn't matter.

Because some people who say they were saved in the 4th of July, 2004, end up walking away from the faith.

And what we'll talk about later is you can't actually just walk away from the faith if you're a Christian.

That's not something that can happen.

So again, we'll talk about that later on, but it's, are you actually on the road?

And that's demonstrated again by your works.

Exactly.

So if you're running your race with perseverance and you attest and you profess that I am a follower of Jesus Christ, I know what and who I was, and I know salvation, how that is paramount in my own life and how you can look at my life.

And it is reflective of that.

2 Corinthians 3 says that anyone who says they believe in God must live as Jesus lived.

OK, so it's talking about the same way Jesus lived.

That's how we need to live.

That's how he'll be reflected, OK?

So again, that is an important analogy.

That is, it's not about if you can become disqualified from the race, it's about whether you were actually in the race in the first place.

It's not about whether you can lose your salvation.

It's about whether you actually had it in the first place.

That comes from understanding the gospel, what and who you are in salvation, and also responding and reflecting.

Yeah, so a lot of people will have this question and will have asked this question, like you and I have both been asked multiple times.

And you yourself might know where this question is coming from, why you have this question.

But look, why do you think that, just give us some examples of why people might ask this question that you've encountered.

So why do people think they're not saved?

It could be lack of growth.

It could be an inescapable sin.

It could be one event which acts as a catalyst.

So it just leaves their life like spiraling out of control.

Like something, like what do you mean?

Like a death or something?

It could be, yeah, it could be a death and an ability to deal with that.

It could be a fallout with a family member, a friend.

It could be alcoholism.

It could be a sexual sin.

It could be anything.

You know what I mean?

You insert whatever there.

It also could be this idea of like a seasonal faith, whereby you're in a season of your life, this drought.

There's this inability to move, to go anywhere, and this idea that you just feel like you can't go anywhere.

There's no hope.

So it's like, well, that's because I'm not saved, is it?

That's the reason why I feel this.

You know what I mean?

Comparison plays a big part in that as well.

You see other people in their faiths.

Mine's don't like that.

So maybe I don't have it.

Do you have any others, Peter?

Well, one other example I've heard as well is just, from the respect of looking at someone else's life, you're like, okay, they claim to be a Christian, but they're not acting like a Christian.

They actually love sin, and they've told you that they love sin.

And that's maybe something you like, just from a third party point of view, like, is that person actually a Christian?

Like, have they lost their salvation?

Because like a few months ago, they were singing in the praise band, and then this month they're off doing something else.

So it's hard to know from even a third party point of view if that person has lost their salvation, so to speak.

Yes.

Okay, okay, okay.

So what we want to establish, though, is that these things, lack of growth, inescapable sin, catalyst, seasonal faith, what Peter was talking about, it's not about a loss of salvation.

But instead, these things are symptomatic of you being in a wilderness state.

Inverted commas, wilderness state.

Yes, what does that mean?

Okay.

So first of all, we just want to just recap what we were saying there.

This is addressing, so once you establish what the gospel is, okay, and you've responded and reflected, you have to do that first.

So this is taking into consideration that you've done that, okay?

Okay.

So you've responded and that you've reflected, okay?

So this is that you actually have a relationship with God and you've done the previous things that we've talked about.

So they were the first steps if you would take it that way.

And now we're on to the next step.

So don't bypass and don't put yourself in this if you're not.

That's what we're trying to get.

There's a sequential pattern that we want to establish there.

So this idea of a wilderness state, if you think of in Exodus of how the Israelites were brought out of Egypt, that is they were saved by God, physically saved, okay?

Not all of them were spiritually saved, but they were saved out of Egypt and brought, and then they were in the wilderness for 40 years, okay?

So they were in a wilderness state.

They had been saved from Egypt, but even though they had been saved, they were now in a wilderness state for 40 years, whereby they were struggling, and they were going through so many different trials and problems and questions that we have just highlighted about, such as those were something that were being regulated in their heads, so that's what I meant by wilderness state.

Okay, and I would also say in terms of like symptoms, I think if someone is displaying characteristics where they just want, they just love sin, I think that's characteristic of probably either two things.

Either, first of all, they're not a Christian, because Jesus says, those who love me will keep my commands.

So if you love sin, you don't love Jesus, because Jesus also says no one can serve two masters, you can't serve sin on Jesus.

So you have to forsake your sin, you have to hate it.

So that's either one thing is you're not a Christian, or the second thing is maybe just ignorance.

Maybe you're not engrossed in God's word to understand what actually is sin or why it is so bad.

Which, whenever you read more of the Bible and you get closer to God, the closer you come to God, the more you see he hates sin and why sin is so bad and so impure.

So I think those are symptomatic of just other things that are going on deep down.

And why do you think these symptoms appear, Luke, or these questions appear?

Yes, so I think it's because, again, these are double negatives, so make sure I get this right, Peter, because we forget what God tells us to remember and we remember what God tells us to forget.

OK, so what do we forget that God tells us to remember?

The enemy, the flesh and the devil.

If you think of the wilderness state, OK, they had been saved and brought out of Egypt, OK, yet they were in the wilderness state, yet they experienced all these things, seasonal faith, a lack of growth, how they were in sin.

Why was this?

Well, they were forgetting what God told them to remember.

The enemy that they were faced with were called the Amalekites.

God told them and warned them to be aware of those people, yet the Israelites weren't.

They weren't on their guard.

As Christians today, in the wilderness state, why we could be in this is because we've forgotten what God told us to remember.

In 1 Peter 5, the devil is prowing around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

OK, I'm pretty sure it's 1 Peter 5.

I think you're right about that.

It's in 1 Peter, OK?

I'll keep it wide now.

And so, that's a fundamental reality right there, is that we forget what God told us to remember.

And so, that then leaves us susceptible to all of these other things.

This lack of growth in our faith, this catalystic sin, these seasonal moments of faith, this idea of why we feel like we've lost our salvation.

We've forgotten what God told us to remember.

Also, another key factor of why you might think, or why you're in the wilderness, is we remember what God tells us to forget.

That is our sin.

Both in the Israelites in their wilderness, and both for believers today, it means the same thing.

Okay?

And five points of freedom that we must remember is that in Romans 5, it talks about how we have been redeemed.

That is past tense, that is salvation, that is the assurance and the confidence that we have in that, but how we are being redeemed.

So there's a verb there, being.

It's something that's constantly happening.

And that's what we were alluded to earlier, sanctification.

Okay, so that's Romans 5 talks about being saved.

Then John 1, it talks about how if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins.

So we just have to confess our sins and God will forgive them.

Why is this?

Lamentations 3, God's mercies are renewed every single morning.

And then that leads us to one of the most important points.

Hebrews 8, God no longer remembers your sin.

Why would you remember something that the God of the universe has chosen to forget?

Why would you do that?

You know what I mean?

That's a bit arrogant that you would choose to remember that God instructed us to forget.

That he himself is forgetting.

And then, that's why Paul wrote, forgetting what is in the past and pressing on to what is ahead, okay?

So instead of forgetting what God told us to remember and remembering what God told us to forget, we need to forget what God told us to forget.

That is our sin and apply those points.

And exercise that freedom and liberation of the Gospel and salvation.

And we need to remember what God told us to remember.

That there is a threat, there is an enemy, we are in the flesh, and there is the world.

So that's why we may have these symptomatic problems and why we may be in seasons of wilderness.

But how we can fight that period of wilderness instead of just saying, oh, I've lost my salvation.

No, forget what God told you to forget and remember what God told you to remember.

Equip yourself with those tools.

So what's the foundation led, Peter?

Yeah, so that was quite a hefty foundation.

Yeah.

But it's the most important part.

If you can't answer those other questions, you won't actually get the answer that you're looking for.

So just if you're struggling with anything, then again, we're always open.

Like we've got our email account linked and you can always message us if you have any specific questions.

And we go back and just think of all those questions and answer them for yourselves.

And with the foundation laid, you can't lose your salvation is the simple part.

Once you're saved, you're saved.

That's the good news.

Yeah.

Hallelujah.

Once your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life, there's no eraser that can rub that out.

So some Bible verses just to back this up.

John 10 says, No man shall pluck me from my father's hand.

And it's not about us gripping on to God.

He's the one gripping on to us.

So that's not up for us to decide.

John 6 says, But as I told you, you have seen me and you still do not believe.

All those who the father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never drive away.

John 10 again says, I am the good shepherd.

I know my sheep and my sheep know me.

Just as the father knows me and I know the father, and I lay down my life for the sheep, I will give them eternal life and they will never perish.

So the gospels talk a lot about Christ as our shepherd.

And a good metaphor for this I heard earlier was that, whenever we're part of Christ's flock and the wolf comes in, to say you can lose your salvation is like saying, okay, the wolf can come in and attack a sheep and bring it out of the flock and kill it.

That's not our fault because we're sheep.

Sheep never win against wolves.

It's to do with the shepherd.

And if our shepherd cries, there's no way.

A wolf's getting into that sheep pen to take us away.

So to say you can lose your salvation is actually a dig at Christ.

So he can let go of us.

His grip's not strong enough to keep us secure.

And it's also to do with our faith.

Like Peter on the boat, he stepped out.

Whenever he saw Jesus walking along on the water, he stepped out of the boat, and it was his faith that let him step out.

And after that, his faith dwindled, and he started sinking.

But again, all he had to do was reach out his hand and call for Jesus.

Jesus was the one that gripped him and lifted him out of those chaotic waters.

That wasn't his power.

That was just his small faith.

Even though his faith was dwindling, it was still there.

All he had to do was call out.

So that's all we have to do is call out, and Christ grips us and rescues us.

And then finally, Galatians 2.20 says, I have been crucified with Christ.

And we don't really have crucifixions nowadays, but it's not the type of thing you can walk away from and then get crucified again.

It's a one time thing.

Once you're crucified, you can't be un-christified.

Yes.

Yeah.

And then a few more is just Revelation 13.

It talks about the elect and you can't be among the elect and then not be.

It just doesn't work like that.

You can't be chosen for the creation of the world and then not be.

Yeah.

There's no reverse card to get rid of that one.

You're either chosen for the creation of the world or not.

You're either among the elect or you are not.

You're either crucified with Christ, okay?

Like actually understand the full implication of what that actually means.

I have been crucified with Christ in the spiritual sense.

So it's not just like 30 years time, that will not happen, that will be reversed.

Again, it's that whole idea of you don't take that ownership upon yourself.

You just diminish the sacrifice of Jesus Christ all the time.

Him as shepherd, as you've talked about.

And to say that I can lose my salvation implies that I have something to do with it.

When we have nothing to do with it, that's all up to God.

Yes, it's a gift.

Yeah, it's a gift.

You have nothing to do with the gift that has been given.

Yeah.

And then, so, say we have the salvation, look, what are some indications for those around us that we can have this, that we have it?

How do people know that we have it?

Yeah, okay.

So we can use discernment, can use wisdom to see whether there is other believers, so someone professed to be saved.

We can see how that is demonstrated in their life, which is something that we've talked about a little bit earlier.

But in John 14, it says, If you love me, then you will obey me.

You will keep the commands of God, as in, it is not about perfection in your life, but rather the direction.

That is where you're walking to or aspiring to.

That is obedience.

I aspire to be obedient towards God.

Yeah.

And to say that we can be Christians and love sin, and to go out and say, well, I'm a Christian, then a few months later, I can wait for the pubs to get opened up again and go get drunk.

That's quite...

It's a contradiction of terms.

So another metaphor for this is a father's camping in a beach with his son, and he says, right son, I'm going to sleep, but don't you dare take that kayak out onto the river, because there are alligators in there, and they'll attack you.

And the son's like, right, that actually looks quite nice.

I might go fishing on the water.

So he takes the kayak out, and he ends up getting mauled by alligators.

And just as he's getting dragged down by the alligators, he passes out, and then he wakes up a few hours later on the beach.

And he looks over, and his father's covered in scars, because his father had to wade in and fight off the alligators to save him.

So, but then he just decides, it's quite fun right there before the alligators attack me.

I'm going to go out again.

So he just picks up the kayak, drags it out, paddles out by himself, and gets attacked again, knowing that his father is the one who's going to pay for it.

He's going to get off scot-free because he knows his father's going to save him.

But he obviously doesn't love his father.

Like, no way can you say that child loves his father, because he's just forced him to get hurt every single time.

So that's how God is with us.

Like, Christ bore our burdens on the tree.

And for us to say, to keep on sin, saying we love sin, again, you can't serve two masters.

You can't say, I can't wait to go out and sin again, when it's going to hurt the heart of God.

Yeah.

And Romans 7 talks about this.

It talks about having enmity towards your sin.

That is hatred, okay?

A true mark of a Christian is that they actually despise anything that the Bible says to be sin.

And then you pair that with the preceding verse.

Then if we hate sin, then we will be obedient to God, and we will avoid it with everything that we've got.

Then you've got 1 John 3, chapters three and five.

It says, anyone who continues in him will not sin, but anyone who keeps sinning does not know him or understand who he is.

We know that God's children do not make a practice of sinning.

So there are just two separate verses, one from chapter three and one from chapter five.

We know that God's children do not make a practice of sinning.

And again, it basically alludes in the Greek, it talks about how we abide in the presence of God.

If you abide in the presence of God, then sin will inevitably decline, not increase.

So if you profess to be saved, and if that person's sin is increasing, and they are not showing obedience nor hatred towards their sin, the Bible is saying that is contradictory to what will happen whenever you're crucified with Christ, whenever you're numbered among the elect.

Rather, your sin will decrease.

Rather, you will have a hatred towards your sin, and there will be a clear direction to follow and pursue after Christ.

And there are some sins that are actually addictive, like alcohol or pornography, things like that.

But if you're not taking steps of repentance and actually hating those sins, and then taking the steps to get better, that's the part that it's talking about.

You can still keep sinning because those things are addictive, but it's about taking the steps to improve and to repent.

Yeah, and that was what Roman's talking about.

I know what I must not do, yet I do it.

Yes.

Paul was even saying that he himself struggles with sin, but the difference was Paul had an aspiration.

He had hater towards their sin.

He wanted to be obedient towards God.

He didn't want to be the foolish boy who just runs out and hurts his father.

It was quite the opposite.

And then finally, we just want to talk about the finality of the cross and redemptive power of Christ, the precious blood of Jesus on the cross, okay?

The work of Jesus Christ, whenever that is experienced in your life and you are saved, that is it.

It is final.

Don't try it and diminish that.

Do you have anything more to add, Peter?

No, I think it is a very important topic.

This is fundamental to all of these podcasts is salvation.

So if you have any questions about this, again, feel free to get in touch.

We'd love to hear from you.

Yeah.

So I'm just going to try and do a 20 second summary, so get ready, okay?

Basically, can you lose your salvation?

The way we have approached this is number one, understanding the gospel message, what and who we are and our need for salvation.

Point number two is responding to the gospel message and also reflecting as to whether you were ever qualified for the race in the first place as opposed to being disqualified, okay?

And then once we had led the foundation, we addressed the actual question itself.

Can you lose your salvation?

Imperatively, no, you cannot.

And throughout all of that, we have given so many verses of scripture for Christians to take assurance that when you are saved, when you're crucified with Christ, he has you, he is the good shepherd, he has you in his hand, and no man shall pluck you from your father's hand.

That was a good 20 seconds.

On that really positive note that we're going to be secure forever, I think that's a good place to end.

So thank you very much for tuning in and we'll see you next week.