Masculinity

Transcript from the podcast (so sorry for the spelling mistakes)

Wildfire podcast is an extension of Wildfire Ministries, an organization that has a focus of igniting men and women of God into a deeper discipleship with Christ, instilling them with a passion to radically and relentlessly pursue Christ wherever that leads, that God's truth will spread like a wildfire.

Bonjour and welcome back to the Wildfire podcast.

Oh man, a little bit of French to start off.

Yeah, I'm really cultured.

Okay, cool.

So this week, we're going to be talking about masculinity.

And I just like to start by asking you, look, what was a defining moment for you as a man when you stepped from boyhood to manhood?

It's a big question.

I think for everyone, it's whenever you hit puberty, isn't it?

Isn't that right?

So last week?

No.

We're still waiting for your voice to break.

Yeah, I know.

You know, unanswered prayers are there for a reason, okay?

No.

So I think actually, in all seriousness, okay, because that's not true.

I have hit puberty, okay?

That's a lie.

It was a joke, if you didn't get that, is amidst my dad's suffering.

So everything has been going through the past months.

I think it's just been really resonating with me, what it is to see his strength, and to see that part of my own life, where the scripture has become so much more tangible with regards to masculinity and the rules, and how I'm supposed to develop.

And seeing his example, I guess, as well.

Yeah, exactly.

So, yeah, it'll be that.

I won't ask you, because we've talked too much about it.

You did specifically tell me not to.

So that's how you view your own masculinity, and how do you think society views men in general, or masculinity?

How does society view men?

I'm going to flip it.

I'm going to ask you, how does society view men, Peter?

Well, you've got the macho man.

Yeah.

It's like you.

Well, no.

Perhaps the one I'd like to be, or pretend to be.

It's something like strong, lacking emotion, like just not really caring about things too much.

Yeah, that was kind of things.

Is there anything else you want to add?

No, but it's always those stereotypes.

It's like, never cry at movies and go out with the lads.

Have you ever cried at a movie?

Look.

Yeah.

Which one?

King Kong, obviously.

I think we talked about that in like...

Oh, yeah, I think we did, my friend.

I did cry at that.

That's embarrassing.

Have you cried at any movies?

Oh, yeah, I did.

It shocked me whenever you told me this again.

First time ever.

Prince of Egypt.

This is a cartoon.

You literally never cry.

That was the first time I cried in years.

Yeah.

Okay.

So basically, don't do what Peter did.

Yeah, that was a bad example.

And yeah, it's all this outward strength, this dominance superiority.

Yes.

Could be sport.

There's a lot of hobbies and activities that are supposed to be stereotyped with what the man can do.

Or seem to amplify those qualities.

Yes, exactly.

That's a better way of putting it.

Yeah.

And then I guess society kind of views them either in a positive light or in a negative light.

So it's like try and be more like these things, like don't show your emotion.

And then the other side of it is, oh, there's the phrase toxic masculinity, which has been thrown around a lot.

Like, okay, those are toxic qualities.

Don't do that.

You need to apologize for that and try and be more effeminate as well.

Yeah.

The whole problem is, it's a huge spectrum.

And then of course, it's like you can diminish so many different qualities and not come out of actually a firm foundation or a good balance.

You know what I mean?

It's like, there's like the opposite end of the spectrum, which yeah, we talk about that.

Yeah.

What's the other side?

The other side is like, as in like, there's no such thing as gender anymore.

Gender is just whatever you feel like and even day.

And everything is just, all genders are equal, which they are in value.

Like me and female, everyone's equal.

But at their core, they're malleable.

Yes.

You can mold them and shape them to what you want to be.

Yeah.

Everyone should be the same, essentially.

Everyone should behave the same.

Which is, listen, the way I look at it is it, what people believe and why they believe it, okay?

What they believe.

So if you believe that, you know what I mean?

There's no objective of masculinity or et cetera.

These ideas of toxic masculinity or the other spectrum, which is like, yeah, like all these are, the reality is, there's just no real way of, you have to have a good biblical understanding of how you understand something.

You know what I mean?

Which is what we're gonna talk about in all this.

And again, we've talked about in a podcast before, What is the will of God for my life?

We've talked about the purpose of humanity, just to bring glory to God.

But this week, especially, we're gonna focus on the purpose of men, what their purpose is to be, specifically.

So if you're a woman and you've listened this far, congratulations, first of all.

You must be somewhat interested in the topic if you've listened for four and a half minutes.

But if you are listening and you're a woman, these qualities and these things we're gonna talk about, they're important because eventually, if you're interested in going out with a guy, these are the qualities you should be looking for in him.

You need to know what to look for.

You need to know what to look for.

And these are hopefully gonna be Godly qualities we're gonna talk about.

Yeah, that's completely great.

So we'll move on.

I'm gonna say, Peter, how does the Bible tell men to act?

Yeah, so I guess we can break this down in three ways.

So how does the Bible tell men to act in regards to God?

So the first point would be to be saturated in God's word.

So Psalm 1 is, I haven't read a lot of the Psalms in detail, but this one is, I think, my favorite.

It says, Blessed is the man who walks not in the council of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers, but his delight is in the law of the Lord.

And on his law, he meditates day and night.

He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither.

In all that he does, he prospers.

Beautiful.

Yeah, lovely, lovely, Sam.

And I'm not one for poetry either.

OK, you know what I mean?

Because poetry is for women, apparently.

It's for wimps.

But that would be the first point.

And then the other thing would be to train to be like Christ.

So 1 Timothy 4 says in verses 7 and 8, rather train yourselves for goldiness, for while bodily training is of some value, goldiness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.

So obviously bodily training, that's just like going to the gym, going for a run, typical exercise things.

Yeah, and not even that, just being moderation in your food, or you know what I mean, it's just looking after your body physically and being healthy in that regard.

But you need to look after your soul as well, I guess, with this verse I was saying.

Yeah.

And then finally, it would be to live a life demonstrative of the love of God and the love he's shown to you.

So Galatians 5 talks about this in regards to fruits of the spirit.

So I'll not bother reading those out, but you can look those up in the Galatians 5.

It's like love, joy, peace, all of those.

Kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

Sorry, I just wanted to say this.

You're not doing yourself any favourites.

I just want to sing the song.

You know what I mean?

Breaking down barriers here, okay?

Yeah.

But that's just in regard to how men should act to God.

Yeah.

Do you have anything else to add there, Luke, that comes to mind?

No, no.

What I was trying to lead to earlier is, if you don't believe, so if what you believe is that, yeah, masculinity is malleable and everything, okay?

I disagree with that, because I do believe there's objectives.

But I can understand people's why, because if you don't believe in God, then of course there's no objective.

So it is subjective.

It's whatever you want.

Whatever you, masculinity and femme, these are all human constructs that we've made to help us, or maybe they've been our downfall.

Like, that topic opens up, so I completely understand, and that's why it's so difficult in politics and stuff, blah, blah, blah.

So that's just a little empathize with people and why they believe, even though I think it's horribly wrong and has great implications.

But next question.

So what about masculinity?

How does that then play out in society, publicly?

So in society, Christians in general have to act with and show the fritz of the spirit.

So that men are not exempt from this.

Like, it talks about love and stuff.

And especially Northern Ireland, men aren't great at showing love to one another.

Yeah, but I'll just do it.

You know, what are the four types, okay?

Because there's different types, or not even all of them, just to talk briefly about.

Because love is death.

Like, whenever you said love there, people were like, what does that mean?

Is that like, mushy stuff on Valentine's Day?

Thankfully not.

But the love in this context is it's agape in the Greek.

I've probably butchered that pronunciation.

Unconditional.

Unconditional love or sacrificial love.

Yeah.

So that's how all Christians are told back towards all Christians.

Yeah.

So we love them unconditionally.

The most powerful type, one of the most hardest to cultivate as well.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

And then again, you got the fruits of the spirit.

And with Galatians 5 is above.

And then the other way we're told is Jesus talks about in Sermon on the Mount, is to be salt and light with the beatitudes.

And a lot of the beatitudes about meekness and stuff, you might not think they apply to man, but they do.

And meekness is?

Meekness.

I probably need to look up the definition, but it's like...

Some form of humility.

Some form of humility or like submission.

Yes.

It's like, yeah, please be right.

I hope you're right, Peter.

I was like, I hope you have the answer.

But yeah, some form of humility.

But yeah, you can read the beatitudes and stuff and see the things that men are expected to do that maybe aren't typical that society would expect all of them.

And then finally, for society, it's to be well thought of with those outside the church.

So in 1 Timothy, Paul lists out the criteria for elders.

And in the eldership, he talks about, he must not be a recent convert.

He must not be puffed up with the conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders.

And we're told elsewhere that men should aspire to be elders in the church.

So if men are aspiring to be elders, they should aspire to be well thought of with those outside the church.

Yeah, so I completely, I love that there chapter, 1 Timothy 3.

That's what I've sort of learned to be, to extract the real fundamentals of what the Bible's telling, what makes masculine.

These are the pillars, the Biblical pillars of what masculinity is.

And from my understanding, it's like it is to desire leadership or to lead in general, not just eldership, but a wider umbrella is to lead.

And it is to take initiative.

It is to be humble, as it says, that meekness of being open to rebuke and chastisement.

It's to have wisdom, self-control, and it's to be held in account in high regard by other people.

So, you can go and say, what do you think of this, of Luke Taylor and any who?

They'll be able to tell you, you know what I mean?

How bad I am, and I haven't been puberty yet.

But you have other stuff, you know what I mean?

That you're not supposed to be quarrelsome.

And those are great characteristics.

You get those, and then you're really in the right direction of biblical masculinity.

For sure.

That links directly into, so the next section is family, how Christians managed to interact with their families.

So, you can say church family as well.

And then that again links to 1 Timothy 3 that you've just talked about.

All those same characteristics, like trustworthy, like let's say, super minded, self-controlled, respectable.

Hospitality.

Hospitality, yeah.

Generosity.

Because people are like, you know what I mean?

Especially hard-line Christians, like a woman's place is in the home completely.

They do not leave that kitchen, and they just, you know what I mean?

They just cook things for people and invite people over.

It's like hospitality is for all people, and there's so many different expressions.

It's a way of kindness, a way of generosity, a way of giving, and that is exercised by both, man and female.

For sure.

And then also, if any stuff says, able to teach, and that doesn't necessarily mean teaching it from the people, it just means being able to explain the Bible.

So you need to, again, like going back to Psalm 1, meditating on scripture day and night, you need to be able to just explain the Bible to people and just understand it well enough.

If someone asks you a question, you're able to talk about it.

And not a drunkard, not violent, but gentle.

Like I think a lot of the talks of masculinity people think about is violent men.

Christian men aren't called violent, they're called gentle, if anything.

Yeah, controlled.

Controlled, yeah.

Like self-control, as it says in the Bible.

Yeah, which is something that needs to be like, you know what I mean?

You've got the problem of pornography, of masturbation, of speaking out of hand, of thoughts, of any form of not being able to exhibit self-control.

You're in a battle for self-control, and you're in a battle to nurture these fruits of the spirit every day, with everything that you do.

So if you're not able to exhibit self-control and pornography, then that's going to have direct effect on how you have self-control in every other aspect of your life, including what it is to be a man.

Definitely.

So that's in regard to the church.

Yes.

Anything else to add there, Luke?

So 1 Corinthians 11, I think.

So it talks about male headship over woman.

Now, headship, of course, what is that?

Connotations have just completely butchered that.

Submission, butchered that.

Submission in the Bible is a beautiful thing.

Jesus submitted to the Father.

So whenever it talks about wives submitting to your husbands in this passage, put yourselves in the same category as that same concept of Jesus submitting to the Father.

So the verse itself is, but I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and that the head of Christ is God.

And that's 1 Corinthians 11 and verse 3.

3 and 3?

Yes, just verse 3.

Just in case you want to look that up.

Yeah, so it's just again that importance of headship about how I submit to God as we all do, okay?

But whenever you are married or enter that relationship, okay, the wife submits to man, but who's the man submitting to?

Christ.

So cut out the middle, man, literally.

As in the woman is submitting to God.

Okay, so you know what I mean?

The wives only submit to their husbands whenever the husbands are actually submitting to God as well, you know what I mean?

You know what I mean?

We're talking about wives, so we're actually talking about...

Yeah, but it's talking about, you know what I mean?

If a wife wants to follow her husband, then that is, of course, devotion is important and submission, but you don't follow someone off a cliff.

So if your husband's leading you off a cliff, then you do...

Submission does not mean naivety.

Yes.

Submission is a beautiful thing, and that's what it's talking about.

It's talking about headship and leading an initiative, which is, again, consistent with 1 Timothy 3 and all of that.

In terms of husbands and wives as well, we're kind of into that section now, but women are called to submit, but what are men called to do?

If you look at Ephesians 5, men are called to have sacrificial, so again, agape love for their wives, presenting them spotless and blameless before God.

That's such a responsibility.

Think of all that entails the man isn't just responsible for his own sin.

He's responsible for his wife's.

He needs to keep his wife in check and make sure she is honoring God.

In check, that probably wasn't the best way to put it, or it sounds scary, but that he needs to be responsible for her and make sure she's honoring God.

Again, like cutting out the middle man, and that sacrificial love, again, like Christ had for the church.

And again, as young men, how do we cultivate that?

Because we don't have a wife, too.

But if you're in a dating stage or in a relationship, then you're starting to exercise these principles and these fruits of the spirit should be exercised every day, regardless.

OK, so yeah, happy enough.

That section, I think.

Yeah, and if you want to look up more with wives and children and how men should treat them, you can either go to 1 Timothy 3 again, talking about the criteria for eldership, or Proverbs 20 talks a lot about faithful and righteous men, and especially in regards to children as well.

So if you want to look up more.

But why should young men worry about what a husband and father are supposed to do, though?

Yeah, so neither looking or married, just as a disclaimer.

Yeah.

Shock.

So why on earth are we talking about what husbands and fathers are supposed to do?

Which is it?

Was that to me?

Was that a question?

That's a question.

Oh, I thought like that was rhetorical and you were going to answer it.

Okay.

No, but like that's actually a wider problem is you're not African American, you're not black, you're not colored, whatever term you want to use, so you can't speak into the topic of racism.

Or you're not a woman, so you can't talk about abortion.

Yeah.

So that doesn't make any logical sense.

That's not rational.

Okay, so you don't have...

And again, this, whenever...

Biblically, we stand on God's word, so me and Peter, we're not mied, but that doesn't then not mean that we can't read what God's word says about what it means to be a husband.

You know what I mean?

So I can't speak from experience, but I can speak from God's word, which is actually...

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or even to use another example of that same principle.

Yeah.

Like, I'm not a murderer, and I'm not someone who's been murdered, but I can still say murder's wrong.

Yes, exactly.

That's just an example of the principle taking one.

And you need to, because you need to know the importance of God's word and what that says.

Yeah.

So, but like, I need to know, if I want to be a father in the future, I want to be a husband, I need to know what it entails, and I need to start learning and growing about that now.

You know what I mean?

If you think of like rugby or football, you don't just go into the Prem or the Premier League, or what's the rugby league?

I don't even know.

Well, you get different ones, but...

The Six Nations, okay?

You don't even just go straight, just look of disgust.

I'm really not masculine in this podcast, that's what this is showing so far.

So you're admitting rugby's more masculine than football, aren't you?

Hey, hey, don't interrupt me.

But if you think, you don't just go straight into rugby, you don't go into the Six Nations, you don't walk into a football league.

It takes time, you have to take the gifts that has been given and grow in that, nurture that.

And then so that whenever you do step into that league, you're ready.

So if you think about it, you're in like a lower league now, whenever you go into it, from what I've heard, whenever you go into my age, it's a step up, it's a league.

It's a league that doesn't even exist.

You can't even get like a metaphor for it.

It's hard.

It's a hard league.

But you need to practice your skills beforehand.

Yeah, exactly.

As of it's like, it doesn't even make any sense.

So it's like, no, I don't need to learn about what it means to be a husband and father now.

And then whenever you become a husband, it's like, I don't know what a husband is.

It's like, why did you not learn about it?

I did, well, I, oh, there you go.

Yeah.

That's your response.

Yeah.

And we've talked before about neuroplasticity and then how you change those pathways in your brain.

Yeah.

And how thoughts lead to habits and that kind of thing.

So it's about just developing those habits again, that will lead to a God-leaving virus in the future.

Yeah.

That lead to a prosperous character that the Bible talks about.

Yeah.

So coming to the conclusion now, is there such a thing as toxic masculinity, Peter?

So I would say masculinity, as it's defined in the Bible, is not toxic.

If men act as the Bible told them to do, the world would be a better place.

However, there are men, just as there are women, or any other subcategory of humanity you want to talk about, that act in a simple way, or in a quote unquote toxic way.

But that's just sin.

It's not toxic masculinity by definition.

It's just a result of men and women, or whoever else you want to talk about, turning away from God and not pursuing him.

That's kind of how I would talk about it.

Yeah.

I completely agree with you.

It's like, toxic masculinity, okay, well, you need to define that as you've just done there.

It's like, well, yeah, of course, toxic masculinity exists.

Toxic anything exists.

Anything can be toxic.

Humans have shown that we can turn.

Anything that is good, toxic.

So to me, like, toxic masculinity is anything that's not biblical masculinity.

Anything that's not found in the Bible pertaining to masculinity is toxic.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Don't do it.

It should be avoided.

Just like everything.

Yeah.

That's what I mean.

Yeah, so.

Now, but here's a question.

Okay, here's a question I want to ask you.

Why is there a crisis of masculinity in the church today?

Okay.

Well, would you agree there is a crisis of masculinity in the church today, first of all?

Like, is there such a crisis?

Heck yeah.

Yeah.

I would definitely.

So I want you to resolve that issue right here, right now, Peter.

Okay.

This is a manifesto that every church is going to take and adopt.

I really hope not.

So I think the problem starts with individuals.

As with most problems, it starts with the individuals.

So individual men, individual Christian men, they aren't exhibiting, they're apathetic.

They don't care, essentially, or they don't take the steps necessary to become godly men.

They're happy enough just to sit back and then the woman, I feel, need to take up.

And like in the Judges, is it Deborah, who is a female judge?

Yes.

Yes, because the men aren't doing their role.

Their hearts have turned away from God.

So then Deborah steps up and fills that role as a judge, because there are no men doing the role.

So I think that's kind of the situation we have in the church today.

Yeah.

So it's like, if women can, women will.

Yes.

But if women will, men won't.

And it's that whole idea is that, so it's like, even in headship, it's like, you know what I mean?

It's like, so a husband has to provide provision, purpose, protection, but then many groups or it could be a minority of women say is like, no, I can fend for myself.

I can provide my own provision, purpose, and protection.

And then you just give man, men, a free pass to do whatever they want.

It's like, oh, well, she doesn't want that.

So it's like insane.

They forfeit a godly husband in order to secure what they believe is their rights, which is what you're talking about.

It's just very dangerous.

Yeah, so men need to step up and pursue clarity in regards to headships.

They need to say, okay, this is the steps I'm going to take to become a better man and become more like Christ.

Yes.

And that's not just for marriage.

That's for everyday life.

That's how you act with unbelievers.

And they need to, even in relationships with their girlfriends and things like that, they need to remove any confusion, strive for clarity, and basically follow Christ and set a good example.

So basically saying that masculinity underpins so much.

Like it literally, like if you crack that, then you're doing well.

Even in, let's take it slightly wider.

So we talk about the individual.

Okay.

Individually man needs to step up.

In society, the family is the building block of society.

And obviously, the nuclear family is one man and one woman, husband and wife, and then children.

So if the man isn't stepping up and being a man, and is failing in his masculinity, then that whole structure of family falls apart.

And if it's the foundation, the building block of society, society itself is going to collapse.

It almost seems like the devil has, he's used that loads.

He's tried to destroy the family system from the beginning of time.

Cain and Abel, brothers, and...

There's so many examples.

Can you think of any off the top of your head?

Well, there's a quote, I think it might be from Lord of the Rings, which isn't the Bible.

I think it's that all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

So Satan doesn't need you to turn around and worship Christian men.

He doesn't need Christian men to turn around and worship other gods or do anything else really bad.

He just needs them to do nothing for God.

And he's talking about you look warm Christians that are just useless.

It's good, but it's not as good as the Bible.

Yes.

Okay, it's a good quote.

So can we give another Bible example?

No, but if you look at that's what I'm saying.

The devil is always trying to destroy the family unit.

He's always trying to diminish what biblical masculinity is, what biblical femininity is, what a hedge is, what submission is.

He's trying to dilute it down and water it down until it's just non-existent.

It doesn't even parallel to what the Bible is talking about.

He tries to omit stuff.

And it just is like if you could define it in one word, it's just compromising.

How many biblical characters compromise?

Oh, I have one.

Abraham, okay?

Abraham, his wife was Sarah, right?

I'm not getting that wrong.

Good.

Okay.

He basically, in order to save his own skin, like said his wife was his sister.

Twice.

Twice, yes.

And I think Isaac did the same thing, you know?

I think he did.

I think you're right.

Yeah.

So it's like, yeah, whole idea of her.

That's, and, but that, like that is, Abraham just forfeited what biblical masculinity is, what his sole purpose was to provide protection and purpose, provision, and a field.

And that's one example.

It's like you go through almost every character and how they feel over and over again, and how we, as men, are feeling.

And it starts whenever you're young.

You have to learn, have to grow.

As in myself included, I am the young, hopefully.

In this question, I am learning every day, and I'm looking at role models, scholarly role models, I'm looking at what the Bible says, and I'm actually applying practical change.

And again, look at how I've talked about community groups before.

That's the reason we have our community groups.

And it's the same-size community group.

We only have men in those community groups.

And it's men driving on men.

I don't think it's because we're sexist.

It's because we know how men think, and we know how to push each other forwards, and we know the ways we can help each other best.

So look at how I've been in the same community group, and Luke's been a great help to me in pushing me forward to be a better man, a more Christ-like.

I'm mad.

You're crying, are you?

I'm just not a man anymore.

No, but Peter's done the same thing.

Community group is, it's amazing.

It holds you accountable.

It makes you strive for the gospel together.

And again, that was a joke about the sexist thing, but the whole point is that you have a group of women who you can surround, galvanize, and can relate with you, and know what you're going through, and how you can better one another.

With men, we know what we're going through, the way we act, the way we operate, and how we can push each other onward for what the Bible says masculinity is.

Okay, so that's it.

We've talked about what masculinity is from the Bible's perspective.

And of course, we're Bible-believing Christians.

We believe that God exists, and God's word is infallible, and that we have to follow that 2T, and be obedient to that.

And so that's why we stand where we are.

Now, of course, if that's what we believe and why we believe it, what you believe could be completely different and why you believe it.

And of course, we want to have discourse with people, and we shouldn't just ostracize people, isolate people.

We want to create an open dialogue where we can discuss and talk about these things.

So hopefully that's helped, that's given you a direction to strive for, or it's a stimulated conversation that you might want to ask questions, and you can do through the email and everything, and the links that we have on the podcast.

So thanks for listening, guys, and we'll see you all next week.