Genesis

Transcript from the podcast (so sorry for the spelling mistakes)

Wildfire podcast is an extension of Wildfire Ministries, an organization that has a focus of igniting men and women of God into a deeper discipleship with Christ, instilling them with a passion to radically and relentlessly pursue Christ wherever that leads, that God's truth will spread like a wildfire.

Hello everyone, and welcome to another Wildfire podcast.

I'm Luke Taylor and I'm here with Peter Wright.

Peter Wright, I'll say it quite assertively there.

Peter Wright.

So, Peter, we're going to be discussing Genesis this week.

What prep have you done?

I watched all the Jurassic Park movies recently.

They're quite great insight.

I don't know why I find that so funny.

People are like, oh wow, what a lame joke.

Yeah.

You didn't actually do that though, right?

No, I didn't.

Calm our camera listeners down.

Yeah, I didn't.

That is not a good way to study Genesis, OK?

However, that does then lead to dinosaurs, evolution, young earth.

I have been asked, I've been asked as a Christian, do you believe in dinosaurs?

That's something I've been asked before.

Do you?

No.

Interesting.

No, I do actually.

OK.

Yeah.

But before we kind of waste more time on that one, it's we're not going to talk about science in this podcast, in this episode anyway.

It's something we think deserves an entire episode of its own, at least.

So we're going to talk about evolution, the Big Bang, dinosaurs, all those kind of things.

Yeah.

So we're not backing down from it.

We're going to do a separate podcast on scientific materialism and all the arguments that stem from that and how that relates to the Bible.

Yeah.

But the whole reason we're not doing it is we're not covering it in this podcast is we're looking at Genesis.

And the main thing we need to consider whenever we're looking at the Bible is what do the authors want to tell us?

And the author of Genesis is not concerned whether the Big Bang happened or not.

That's not the primary question they're seeking to ask or answer.

So therefore, it's not something we should be concerned with in this podcast episode.

So, look, how would you summarize the Book of Genesis?

What would you kind of put over it?

So, it's 50 chapters.

And the way I would kind of separate or break it down is the story of the world, chapters 1 to 11, and then the nation and the family, chapters 12 to 50.

So it's like a wide scope and then a specific scope comes in on chapter 12 on the family of Abraham.

And then the story just goes from there.

So Genesis means beginning, right?

Yes.

The Hebrew word is reshit.

Okay, you're a nerd.

That was really helpful.

Thank you very much.

Yeah, so Genesis means beginning in English, because that's what we all speak.

But so in this...

That's what the Hebrew word actually means as well.

It means beginning.

Okay, thank you.

Sorry again.

So 1 to 11, that's the beginning of the world.

And then 12 to 50, that's the beginning of a nation or a family.

Yeah.

And like the Bible Project do a really good summary of this if you want to get like a real good brainstorm or short inversion.

Yeah.

So the way I would kind of describe the whole story, though, and I guess it's the story of the Bible in general.

I mean, Genesis starts the way the Bible continues is it's the story of how God walks with men.

So you got God walking with Adam in the Bible.

And you find as well before the fall, which we can go into more detail by the drawing, it's quite, it's like the defining event of the first early chapters.

But God, it says God walked with man or God walked with Adam.

So God was the one who came down and walked with Adam and Eve in the garden.

But after the fall, every time you see this phrase walked, oh no, I call Jeffery's in the Hebrew word, but I'm going to use one now.

Hith pael.

I've definitely butchered that one.

Say that again.

Hith pael is how it's spelt in English, but okay, no waste of more time than that.

Sounds like you have a list.

But then, so every time it's written after that, it says the character, that word or walked with God.

So it's the other way around.

So after the fall, it's man's responsibility to walk with God, because we're the ones who have sinned and fallen.

So with Enoch, I think he's the first example after the fall.

So instead of God walked with Adam, it's Enoch walked with God.

So it's just a role reversal, because God is so holy and he's in the heavens.

It's our responsibility now to come to him.

Does that make sense?

So we forfeited that with our sin.

What a blessing.

That would have been God walking with us.

Yes.

Physically, tangibly.

And then now there's difference.

Now there's an effort made on humanity's part.

Yes.

Okay.

I understand that.

I understand that.

So then the other example is Noah as well.

So whenever it says a character walked with God, you can tell they're a better character than everyone else.

Because it's hard to see any good characters in the early chapters.

Everyone seems pretty terrible.

Yeah.

To be honest, I think that's just a general theme in the Bible.

That's true.

We're all just sinful, sinful humanity.

No character seems to champion anything.

Yeah.

I think that's that's as well a problem.

I used to have a biblical interpretation.

I don't know if you did this as well.

Look, I always looked at the characters and was like, Oh, David did this really well.

So I'm going to try and be like David or Genesis in particular.

Like, okay, Abraham had faith, so I'm going to be like Abraham.

And in some sense, that's true.

Like we need to have faith like Abraham, but also these characters are so bad.

And sometimes like, yeah.

And there is a propensity to do that, especially within the Jewish community, for example, they might place Abraham in like a divinic state almost, or these Old Testament characters.

You know what I mean?

If you actually speak against Abraham or talk about biblically things that he did wrong, they'll actually maybe question you.

And I'm saying that's not all Jewish community.

Of course not.

As in there is a minority, there is individuals who do that.

And of course, if we think of how that relates just today, think of even the Ravi Zacharias.

We put men who we think of great intellect, of great renown, and we put them in a place of divinity.

We are over-reliant on men.

And that is a perfect example.

Don't do it because you will ultimately, you know what I mean?

The only person that will meet our expectations is Jesus Christ, is the God of the universe.

Trinity 3 and 1.

Yeah, so whenever we're reading through books like Genesis, instead of saying, what can I learn about this character?

What can we learn about God?

Is the primary question.

Yeah, the Bible is just one whole narrative talking about Jesus.

Yeah, in fact, I'd say there's probably more examples of things where you learn what not to do from certain characters.

That's probably the trend.

So polygamy, look, Abraham has, well, he has Sarah, and then he has a few concubines.

He's at least one concubine.

Oh no, he's a few concubines.

Okay.

Isaac, and then, well, Isaac, actually, he might, I can't remember about Isaac, but then you get Jacob, who's more than one wife.

Yeah, Rachel and Leah.

Should we be polygamists?

Is that how it works?

No.

Why so?

We should not be polygamists.

So again, narrative does not mean normative.

So again, there's things called biblical hermeneutics.

That is, these are frameworks or tools that allow us to read the Bible and actually analyze or expose what it is actually saying, what it is.

So just because it says that Abraham had or Jacob had or, insert character, had how many number of wives, for example, Solomon, being the best example.

Narrative does not then mean that we, that is a normative, that's a precept command that God has given us, that we then go in my and have polygamous relationships or have like 900 occupants or whatever it was.

You know what I mean?

So just because it appears in the Bible doesn't mean it's a precept command.

Yeah, there's prescriptive and descriptive.

Yes, elaborating that.

Okay, so prescriptive is do this thing, like the Ten Commandments.

Yes.

Prescriptive is this thing happened.

Yes, and that's what the, you know, the Bible is also an historical document, okay?

I am history student, so I love studying the Bible, and it basically gives narratives.

So, and that's something that is testament to the Bible, as in it is not just a propaganda book, a bias book.

It's like every person who appears in the Bible is amazingly good.

There's only one, and that's Jesus, which we've talked about.

Again, it talks about all, every single character has faults, has errors, and the Bible documents that, as any good historical objective document does or should do.

Yeah.

So with Genesis, look, there's something called the Law of First Mention.

Are you familiar with that?

No, I have no idea.

Oh, right.

I was hoping you would be.

Is this a moment we're going to look at each other and be like...

No, to be fair, I do, but I was hoping you'd be able to answer it and I'd be able to pass off here.

But...

What is it, Peter?

Such a genuine question.

So the Law of First Mention, there's biblical themes that appear throughout the Bible.

Again, Bible Project have lots on these, but you'll notice with every single one of the Bible Project videos, they always start in Genesis.

Okay.

Because Genesis, in the beginnings, was the beginning of the theme, the beginning of an idea.

So the Law of First Mention, whenever something is mentioned for the first time, it's quite important, because that shows how it's going to be replicated throughout the rest of the Bible.

And can you think of any examples of this?

Or is that, again, putting you on the spot too much?

I don't know.

God?

The first time God appears?

I don't know.

Can you give us an example?

Well, you got Biblical Faces throughout the Bible.

Oh, yes, okay.

So you got Faces.

The first one would be, I think, after the...

Okay, so more generally, sacrifices, which links to faces.

I was just about to say that.

Yeah, so sacrifices, which actually were...

Sacrifices, which links to faces.

You got, after they sinned, they're covered in animals' clothing.

Yes.

So an animal would have had to sacrifice its life for them to be covered for their sin.

So that's the first time a sacrifice is taken.

So that's...

Sorry for interrupting.

No, no problem.

That is typological.

So that's a thing called a type.

So typological things are a type.

That is a type of the Christ, or that's what it's alluding to.

Prophesying that Jesus Christ is going to be the sacrifice, the atonement that will cover us.

Just as this animal sacrifice covered them.

I see.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Can you get the examples in Irish?

I want a few more.

Yeah, a few more, Peter.

Okay, so you got a tale of two cities.

You got Babylon and Jerusalem, both of which appear in Genesis in the first ten chapters.

So you got Babylon as the torah of Babel.

That's the first time Babylon, and it's the city of evil.

And then you've got Jerusalem, which is actually called Salem.

And Abraham doesn't live there, but there's a character called Malchizedek, who I know you know about.

He comes out of Salem, which means peace, the city called peace, and he is a priest and a king.

Of course.

And that's another typological thing.

They're actually intrinsically linked, the typological and what you're talking about.

Yes, because he was the first high priest and king, and then Jesus is the high priest and king.

And in Revelation, Jesus will come down and he will reign in Jerusalem.

So it's amazing.

What about laws?

Laws.

Is that one?

What do you mean?

And then the first time a law appears.

Shut up, like, that's not one.

I think, well, why didn't it decovidence?

Ah, yes.

I don't know about laws in particular.

I haven't thought about that one before.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

Okay.

So covenants, you got the Adamic Covenant, you got the Noalic Covenant, you got the Abrahamic Covenants.

Yes, yes.

I see those are quite important.

What would you say about those?

Look, about covenants in the Bible, and in particular in Genesis.

Well, covenants, of course, are important.

They are the promise that is made by God to man.

And unlike promises that humans make to one another, these are unbreakable.

That is, whenever God commands something, it will come to pass.

Isaiah 55 says anything comes from my mouth will accomplish what I have said out to accomplish.

So you got the covenants such as the Adamic covenants, Newech covenants, Abrahamic covenants, such as the Abraham one, which I do know a little bit about.

That is that his line would be multiplied, that he would have numerous generations, as numerous as the stars, and then a sign of that covenant, there was signs that were given to represent the covenant, was circumcision.

And then you see from that, Israel comes, so that's the line of Abraham.

That's the numerous, as numerous as the stars.

And a sign of that covenant was circumcision, for example.

And it's that idea that God says that I will bless you, and when God says that, he will bless us.

Or bless Abraham and these covenants.

So it's a covenant, divine decree by God, that will accomplish what he has set out to accomplish, if I feel.

And then some covenants are conditional and unconditional as well.

Yes.

So there's one, I think, with Abraham.

I think it's chapter 14 or 15, where it symbolizes the covenant cutting, again, some historical context.

They cut up the two sacrifices in pieces, and the symbolic of, if you don't obey this covenant, this is what will happen to you.

You'll be cut into pieces.

And then the two parties who are about to enter into the covenant will, again, join hands or just walk up and down between these two cut up sacrifices.

And that symbolizes the covenant beginning.

But whenever Abraham is going to make this covenant with God, to say an error will come from him that will save the world, he falls asleep.

And whenever he wakes up, he sees a cold one.

I think it's a cold one of fire.

It's described as passing up and down between the cut sacrifices.

So that's symbolic of God.

God is making this covenant, but it's only one way covenant.

He's like, no matter what Abraham does, I'm going to keep this covenant.

He has nothing to fulfill.

So then there is other promises that God's make that are clearly instituted as conditional.

That is, it requires a human response.

So depending on what we humans do will depend on.

Yeah, and that's like with Moses, the covenant God makes with Israel at Mount Sinai.

It's, if you keep these commands, I will bless you.

If you don't, I will punish you.

And that's what happens.

Yeah.

And I'm like, yeah, this year in Babylonian exile.

Okay.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Another question that's raised in Genesis is about the idea of repentance, but not human repentance, but God's repentance.

So again, it comes up throughout other places in the Bible, but to answer the question here, it's in particular with the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Okay.

Abraham changes God's mind.

Is that what happens, or how would you describe it?

Right.

Okay, so this takes a bit-

Recap the story for us.

Okay.

So the story.

Yeah.

Or just that part of the story.

Well, you basically got Sodom and Gomorrah.

They were sexually deviant.

They were promiscuous.

They were sinful in every way that you could think of.

And basically, it got to the point where God said, that's enough.

God said, I'm going to execute justice on Sodom and Gomorrah.

Now, Abraham's-

What was Abraham's-

Nephew was living in Sodom and Gomorrah with his wife and children.

And so Abraham, not only probably because of that, but he had empathy for a people, the people there as well.

He basically began praying to God saying, please don't destroy them.

And then it basically goes back and forth.

If I find this so many righteous people, I won't do it.

And basically comes to the point where they find not a single person who is righteous.

And so God then decrees, I'm going to destroy.

But again, it's that back and forth, the idea of man dialoguing with God, man-

And seemingly changing God's mind.

Yes.

So now that we've established the narrative, what I would say to understand, because this isn't just the only passage, because we need to establish that God is omniscient, that is, he is all-knowing, he is omnipotent, that is, he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and omnipresent.

So he is everywhere.

So omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent.

Those are the immutable characteristics of God.

So we want to make sure that when we read the passages, that we are not diminishing those characteristics, okay?

And it also says elsewhere, I think in Numbers, that God is not a man, that he should change his mind.

Not only in Numbers, first Samuel 15, which is a really interesting passage, because it talks about how God says he'll never change his mind, or he'll never repent.

And then later in that passage, it says God repents.

So it seems like we have a biblical paradox there.

Okay, but what we need to understand is when reading the passages, we know that God is those immutable characteristics, unknowing, all-powerful, and omnipresent.

He is everywhere.

So that's what we need to make sure that we establish, and that we don't detract away or destroy who God is and what his character is.

So that then leads us to actually answer the question.

Yeah.

You always love to set up the foundations, as you say.

The foundations, the pillars.

Yes.

So we are the finite, trying to understand the infinite.

We are the comprehensible, trying to understand the incomprehensible.

Okay.

So human conceptualization of the infinite is always going to be limited.

Okay.

There's going to be a threshold that we meet, that we just can't surpass, because of our cognitive faculties.

Just can't deal with it.

They just can't hope our brains would literally implode, explode, whatever.

So that's what we have to truly understand, is that we won't be able to understand.

And so it leads us to a feature, because these are humans writing, writing the Bible through the inspired word of God.

So this is God giving to man, but man trying to understand God, through the language devices that we have.

And so God condescends.

Yes, exactly.

So a feature or device that is used within these narratives or whenever in these passages is anthropomorphic metaphors.

Okay, so basically it's whenever we give human characteristics to God in order to better understand as best we can.

And so that's what's happening here.

We are trying to conceptualize as best we can the infinite.

But it's important that when we do that, we don't detract away from the character of God.

So whenever, and you also have to enshrine it in the context.

So whenever it talks about God repenting and in humans repenting, humans repenting, it's always preceded by sin or something's done wrong.

And so that's the need to repent of.

Whenever it's talking about God, look in the context, it means something completely different.

Yeah.

So again, it's just understanding those language devices.

It's understanding the internal characteristics and context of the passage.

Yeah.

I would add to that, though, and I would say, obviously, we won't, again, it is incomprehensible.

But I think I would draw the line slightly further and say, there are aspects of what we can understand.

So the way I would explain it is, like we said, we've brought conditional or unconditional.

I think, and this is again, this isn't me.

This is Dallas Theological Seminary.

So it's not, this isn't my thinking.

But they describe it as God has conditional and unconditional ways of thinking.

And so with Solomon Gamora, we'll take that as an example.

If it was unconditional, he would have just destroyed them, because his mind can't be changed.

If he said unconditionally, I'm going to destroy Solomon Gamora, that's not going to change.

Whereas Abraham, whereas it probably was conditional, because Abraham was able to get, I think it was, he finished up at 10 righteous, which turns out there wasn't even 10 righteous, so he still destroyed them.

I think that's how it ends.

But that was a conditional thing.

God said, okay, he knew before he began, I'm going to save it for 10 people, because he is omnipotent.

So even with Israel, like Israel going through the rest of the Tamach, God says, well, it's written in the Covenant, it says, if you do those things, I will punish you.

Sorry, if you keep my commands, I will bless you, and if you don't, then I'll punish you.

But then you got all the prophets coming and saying, repent, like God's saying, if you repent, my punishment is conditional.

It's conditional of your repentance.

Yes.

So therefore, God's mind can be changed if we change our ways in certain circumstances, but there are other circumstances, which again, that's the part we can't comprehend, is when and when not he is.

Of course.

So for summarizing that, whenever we think of this really a first confusing topic, we need to understand that God is all of these characteristics, which we talked about, and we can't detract away from that in order to understand the passage.

Okay, so we can't just compromise like God's omniscience in order to just understand the passage.

We've talked about how we are finite, trying to understand the infinite.

We've talked about anthropomorphic metaphors.

And we've also talked about the conditional, unconditional nature of God that can help us understand.

And also talked about how repentance, whenever it's pertaining to God, means something different to whenever it's addressing human repentance.

Yeah, exactly.

And that's a brief understanding.

If you want to, I encourage you to research more upon that topic and get more extensive understanding upon it.

Oh yeah, for sure.

One of the most amazing stories is Isaac, the sacrifice.

Abraham had to sacrifice his son.

Started to go through Genesis by talking about that one, actually, yeah.

Yeah, that is a crazy passage as well.

I never even realized he was sacrificed in Mount Moriah, which is where Calvary is in the New Testament.

That's the exact same location.

That is crazy.

So Abraham offers up his son as a sacrifice, and 2,500 years later, Father God offers his son, Lord Jesus Christ, on that exact same mountain.

And again, it's typological, you know what I mean?

It's about, you don't have to sacrifice your son because I'm going to sacrifice my son in place of that.

And there's so much you can write.

There's so much about all these stories.

There's so much you can talk about.

And then we've talked about, from Isaac, then comes Jacob and Esau.

You've got Israel, Edom.

You've got the narrative and contrast there.

And then from Jacob, this is 12 sons?

Yes.

Is that correct?

Yeah, 12 sons.

Is there 12 or 13?

12?

Well, okay, so there's the 12 tribes of Israel.

Yes.

But Joseph actually has his two sons who are included in the tribes.

There's no tribe of Joseph, but there's a tribe of Ephraim and Manasseh.

Yes.

So there's actually 13 tribes.

So that no matter which way it's counted, there's always 12 tribes.

So if they go to war, the Levites aren't included because they're the priests.

Yes.

But there's still 12 tribes going to war.

That kind of thing.

So whatever way you count it, even though there's 13 tribes, there's still 12.

Yes.

Okay.

I understand.

I understand.

And then that's an amazing story about Joseph as well.

Oh, yes.

That's a class story.

Yeah.

So how does that transition?

So basically, it's whenever they're in Egypt.

Okay.

And then that's the transition from Genesis to Exodus.

Yeah.

So basically, it's...

Can you remember the narrative that happens there?

There's how they get into slavery.

Yeah.

So it says there's a new Pharaoh that arises, that new not Joseph.

And in the Septuagint, which is Greek, it uses the word hetero, which means other, of another type.

So a lot of scholars think this is either...

There's a period of history where there was the Hyksos Pharaohs that reigned in Egypt, and they were of Assyrian lineage.

So I think the most plausible explanation is Joseph rose to power.

For one reason, Joseph rose to power so quickly, not only because he was very good at his job and predicted dreams and that kind of thing, like the gift God gave him, but also because the Pharaohs were the Hyksos Pharaohs.

So that roughly time frames also like line up roughly.

So they were also Semites from that same region of Joseph.

So like this guy is kind of like us, he's not an Egyptian, so we're going to promote him in our ranks because he's like a bit racism involved, but he's like the same as us.

So then whenever it says that a Pharaoh of another kind came, there was a point of time where the Egyptians overthrew the Hyksos Pharaohs and kicked them all out.

So they would have probably looked at Israel, even though they were a different nation, and be like, these guys are Semites, they're from the same part of the land, so we don't like them, so we'll put them into slaves or into slavery.

So that's probably one kind of explanation.

Because they were so numerous and posed a threat, then they had to make a...

So again, those are just inferences again with all the other historical content that we have that only reaffirmed the biblical message.

Again, there's like, this is some reading over lockdown, I've told Luke about this already, but like the Enuma Elish, which is the Babylonian and Mesopotamian kind of creation myth, and it just talks...

It's very interesting to compare that to Genesis because there are some points that are almost identical, and other points that are completely different.

So it's just interesting to see how the Bible varies from these other sources.

And then the other example is in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

You've got a character called Utnapishtim, who him and his wife survive a worldwide flood by building an ark.

Okay, so it's like the Babylonian narrative.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay, I see.

So it's just interesting to see all these historical documents that kind of support the Bible in different ways.

And it's something you can...

Again, we don't really have time to talk about in a 30-minute podcast.

Yeah, of course.

Like the whole point of this podcast was to give you a brief overlay of...

You know what I mean?

Give you a framework and splitting it up of chapters 1 to 11, 12 to 50, extracting some key things such as covenants or talking about...

Biblical themes beginning, that kind of thing.

Yeah, exactly.

Talking about Adam, Noah, Abraham, talking about the patriarchs, talking about narratives, talking about how you transition from Genesis to Exodus and how that's the next step and how it's one really interesting narrative.

Now, you could literally, like, of course, continuing today, people are still writing books on this.

So, you know what I mean?

And you could do sermons on each individual character, you know what I mean, regardless of who it is.

On each verse, probably.

Yeah, exactly.

About how we can learn from them and the sins they committed and the faithfulness of God and his providence.

And again, there's so much which we can't cover in this podcast.

And we can't cover the age of the earth.

I feel like this is just a trailer for further podcasts in Genesis, because we will definitely come back to it at another point.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

How do you summarize then?

Do you have anything else to say, Peter?

Summarize, it's the story of how God seeks to walk with men and how men need to respond and walk back.

Okay.

And that's what the whole Bible is about.

So it's a good place if you're beginning to not, don't get bogged down with all the details about like, oh, how old is the earth and that kind of thing.

Because again, the author aren't concerned about that, so neither should we.

There are important questions to answer, but not in the beginning when we're starting out.

But read Genesis if you're curious.

If you're not a Christian, probably start with the Gospels, because you want to have a view of Christ before you go back.

Even on the Rhodamaeus, Jesus says, he testified of the scriptures of himself, of all things.

I've definitely messed that translation up a good bit.

But basically, Jesus has been able to have been found throughout all of the Bible and therefore in all of Genesis.

Like we've already pointed out three or four ideas where Jesus is obviously shown, and we didn't even plan those.

That was just what came up in our conversation.

Yeah.

How about you summarize and look at any further thoughts?

No, no, no further thoughts.

I'll just give you a brief overlay before that.

So, you know what I mean?

I don't exhaust it.

Thanks guys for listening and we shall see you all next week.