Why does God allow suffering?

Transcript from the podcast (so sorry for the spelling mistakes)

Wildfire podcast is an extension of Wildfire Ministries, an organization that has a focus of igniting men and women of God into a deeper discipleship with Christ, instilling them with a passion to radically and relentlessly pursue Christ wherever that leads, that God's truth will spread like a wildfire.

Hello everybody, welcome back to the Wildfire podcast.

Welcome Luke.

Hi, how's it going?

Actually, on my phone right now, someone's ringing me.

Answer it.

I'll record the answer and we'll get it.

No, I'm not going to.

Oh, no, yeah, right.

It's Matthew Lighthite.

Sorry.

Shout out, I could buy the...

Anyway, just keep going.

Sorry, that was a digression.

Yeah, apologies.

What a distraction.

We're very professional here.

So this week...

He's ringing me again.

We're going to be talking about...

I think this is our part four in our suffering series and...

I'm recording the podcast as we speak, so yeah.

Sorry, continue.

This is part four in our suffering series.

So we've done Habakkuk, which was a lot more about suffering than we'd imagined before we began.

I interviewed your dad about his cancer journey.

We talked about the Book of Job, and as most people know, it's a lot to do with suffering, and we talked about some of the arguments behind why God might allow suffering or can we even question God in that regard.

So this week, we're just going to be talking about sin and does that lead to suffering, and I guess like what is sin and what sin does.

So yeah, like suffering in the broad question.

This is the last of a four part series on suffering, and this is why does God allow suffering?

Because that's such a potent question, as you said, as you asked me, about sin.

So what sin is and what sin does, because I think it's important to understand that we talked about it in the last podcast that suffering came about as a result of sin.

Sin has made suffering possible.

Our sin, my sin, your sin.

And so we have to think about this, that everything was good.

It was pure.

It was perfect.

There was no sickness.

Whenever God created everything, Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and God is a loving God.

And in order for love to exist, so did choice.

So we would just be mechanical beings.

There had to be a capacity to be disobedient.

But God stacked the odds in our favor.

Out of all the truth that he created, there was only one that typified a choice that would result in negative implications or effects, that would result in sin and thus suffering.

Because we see that sin and suffering, there's a real strong correlation.

We see as soon as people sin, what happens, pain at childbirth.

So we see that as a result of sin, there will be suffering, there will be pain that wouldn't have existed prior to that act.

And so what we're saying is here is that God's ideal, whenever he first created everything, there was no sin and thus no suffering.

And God out of love instilled in me and you a choice prerogative.

And without that choice, there never would have been love.

Because people are then asking me, okay, so it's a result of my sin that suffering exists, but why did God give me the choice in which he knew that I would sin?

And the reason, the answer for that is that in order for true love to exist, there has to be a choice, there has to be a response.

Because we're saying if you didn't have a choice, and it was just blind obedience and nothing else, you would just be a robot, a mechanic, a mechanical tool.

You wouldn't actually be a human being who could actually decide to have a relationship with God.

Which makes the relationship more meaningful.

Exactly.

Both parties are consenting to it, essentially.

Like we wouldn't even be thinking the way we are now if we didn't have autonomy or prerogative or choice.

But with that choice came our sin, and with sin came suffering.

And this is a very important posture, a very important perspective to adopt whenever we approach suffering, which is really hard to do because whenever you're going through suffering, whenever my dad was diagnosed with cancer, I wasn't going through back to the Garden of Eden and thinking about my sin, and thinking about suffering and where it stemmed from.

You know what I mean?

Whenever you go through suffering, these are not the thoughts that you think of.

So that's why it's good in these seasons where there is little or no suffering in your life, that you reflect on these things, because you're in a position where you can't be affected by emotion as much if you understand me.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does, yeah.

So, but if God intervened every time we sinned, that wouldn't be free will.

Probably that would be oppressive, because think of the choices that you make every day, and the sins that me, you, and everyone commits every day.

And if God were to intervene every single time, all of a sudden, just choice doesn't exist anymore.

So you can't go for that, okay, we can have choice, but what about every time I use my choice to sin, God intervenes?

That's not choice, and it's full of that's not prerogative, and thus that's not love in its entirety.

That's not a relationship.

Again, it's like, if you think of a relationship with, in a marriage, that is, it is a choice for both, but rather if I were to simply subject that person to marry me, to get in a relationship with me, and to keep on subjecting her every single day, that's not true love.

Rather, love is based on a choice.

It's a mutual concession by both parties.

And that's crazy to think that the god of the universe, who is in desire or needs nothing, desires us, desires our hearts, desires us to say yes to him.

If I could kind of talk for a little bit about, you raised the point about how if we sinned, if every time we sinned, God correct us straight away, there would be no free will.

However, I think to some degree, he has set up the world in a way that that is what happens, because there's like consequences to our actions.

Not in the sense of karma, where every good thing you do will have a good result and every bad thing you'll have a bad result.

That's obviously an Eastern philosophy that we would completely disagree with.

However, the way the world's been designed, if you do something that's a sin or like a damaging lifestyle, then you're going to suffer consequences.

But then there's also eternal punishment for those sins as well.

Yes.

So there's the two separate things.

So I heard this analogy once.

I can't even remember where from, but it was kind of stupid.

Okay.

But I like fishing, so it kind of works for me.

But consequence is like, you catch a fish, bring it out of the water, and since it's out of the water, it can't breathe, it doesn't get oxygen, and it dies.

So the consequence of it being out of the water is it dies.

But punishment, I say the fish jumped out of the water, and you're punishing it for jumping out, that would be to kill it.

Yeah.

So there's two different things.

One is naturally something that happens, and judgment is something that happens by a third party.

So in our case, it's God, isn't fixing the judgment consequence, that's your own fault, because God set the world in this way.

And a more practical example is just say with like STIs.

So if you go around having sex with tons of people outside of marriage, then you're probably, the odds are quite likely you're going to have an STI.

Yeah.

So that's just the way God set the world.

You're only meant to have sex with one person, your wife or your husband.

So the gods set the world.

If that happened, if everyone did that, there would be no STIs.

Yeah.

But because we go apart from this, from God's desire path, there's sin and suffering because of it.

Like God's created the parameters.

Yes.

And that's what we're saying.

We're saying that God created, God's ideal was a perfect world with no suffering and us to have a relationship with Him.

And God instilled within us a choice.

That choice resulted in us sinning and rebelling and turning against God.

But whenever we sin and turn against God, we deviate away from everything that is of God and everything that is God.

So that's goodness, mercy and love.

All things good are God.

And so whenever we reject God and sin, we deviate away from that.

So that's everything that is suffering, evil, pain.

And so that's, as you say, the world that we inhabit in.

That is, whenever we do sin, whenever we do something wrong, there is an implication, an effect that is damaging.

And we're saying on a colossal scale, if we take all of humanity as a whole, over the years that we've been here on this earth, we now can see the implications and effects of sin on a wild scale.

But what we're not saying is that we're not saying that, oh, you lied there, and so you're gonna get like a nosebleed here.

Yeah.

That's, yeah.

I don't know if that's a pretty appropriate response.

It's very arbitrary, but that actually makes sense.

But yes, yeah, we're not saying that it's, it's definitely not a karma.

We're getting, we're seeing where the origins of suffering actually came from.

And we're, we're answering a few, a few questions, a few objections that people might have.

And we're asking people to take this perspective now while you can.

And if you are in a season of suffering, if you can take the perspective of it was our sin that made suffering possible, not God.

So all of that to say, don't put blame on God.

Yes.

Because these are the implications and effects, simply the results of the choices that we have made.

And that we live in the fallen world.

Which is a sad reality.

But it's good to know, as you said, God has set it up in a way that when we do fall into sin, or when we do inhabit it in suffering, we can see how it all brings us back and points us towards Christ.

Which is what we're going to talk about in the rest of this podcast.

However, I need to, just something you said there, look, I just need to maybe correct your terminology.

I think you maybe just misspoke.

You said all things good are God, but that's obviously, all good things come from God, as it says in James.

Yes.

Every good and perfect gift, yes.

Yes, comes from the father of heavenly, is it heavenly lights, is that the?

Yes, that is James Placid James.

But yeah, you just so, yeah.

I said, sorry, the nature of God is also good.

Yes, that's, yeah.

And as a result of God's nature being all good.

Yeah, no, it's not, it's definitely.

All good things derived from God.

It's not polytheism.

Peter, thank you very much.

Did I say that?

Was I on the lines of polytheism?

I'm pretty sure you said all good things are God.

I think you just misspoke, but it's not.

Oh, sorry.

Everything good is not God, God's not.

Yeah, good, thanks for correcting that.

No problem.

If you hadn't of, your dad definitely would have, so we wouldn't be fine anyway.

But good, thank you, Peter, for stopping me from engaging into heresy.

Messing up your train of thought.

Remember you mentioned these Aetheran orthodox religions.

I just started going into Buddhism and Hinduism.

So it was your fault.

Anyway, moving on.

Oh, yes.

So can you summarize?

You were supposed to ask me that, but I'm going to ask you.

Can you summarize what we're thinking?

I think we just sort of did.

Okay, we summarize it.

Move on.

Okay, good.

I think I thought this was amazing.

This here statement right here.

God made sin possible by making man, but it was man that made sin a reality.

Can you unpack that?

Can you?

Yeah, sure.

Please do.

He's talking about my abilities, rightfully so.

Yes, so whenever God made man, before man was on the scene, there were no creatures, like trees couldn't sin because they have no inherent moral value, I guess, in terms of like you have to take care of the environment, but they are not moral entities of themselves.

And animals are not created with a moral system the same way humanity is.

Therefore, sin can't result from that, because they don't have the same moral compass as we do of right and wrong.

Whereas when man was created, at the same time, God says, here's the law you have to keep, don't eat from this certain tree.

So therefore, when there is a choice given, there's a right choice and a wrong choice.

So God made the possibility of wrong choice, when he made man.

Yeah.

And then we talked about why did God make that choice in the first place?

Because of choice and because choice, love.

Yeah.

But then man was the one that obviously took the wrong choice.

Yes, and made sin a reality and with sin suffering.

So it's all interconnected.

There you go.

So is there anything else we, should we remember anything else?

Yes, because at this point, people may say, okay, so there's a correlation between sin and suffering.

So if I just don't sin, I won't go through suffering, right?

That's sort of like one of the objections that's raised.

It's made clear in Job that that's not the case because Job is righteous, and he does engage in suffering in his life.

And that's just one example of many.

So I have a few here about even when we think of Jesus' ministry, he says that he'll send us out like lambs amongst wolves, or Jesus said, bless her there that are persecuted, or take up your cross and follow me, or in this world you will have trouble.

Like Jesus actually says, in this world you will have trouble, but take heart because I have overcome the world.

And it's an important fact for Christians to remember, and for all the world to remember is that it's like whenever you, perhaps you have a fear and anxiety, you cry or you're engaged in suffering, and people say, oh, you shouldn't be crying.

You shouldn't have these fears and anxieties because you're a Christian.

And what we're saying is, as Christians, we're not to be desensitized by the circumstance, whatever that may be, but rather we can be equipped.

So that's what we're saying.

So we're not diminishing what you're going through, but rather we're giving something that can equip you to deal with what you're going through.

That's what Christianity provides.

That's what a relationship with Christ provides.

It provides a comfort and it provides a means and a lens to which you can actually see everything through.

That provides a path out.

Yes.

Well, on a separate note to the same point, which is if we don't sin, then there'll be no suffering.

That's kind of a very Pelagian view.

So I have a listen to Remnant Radio that they've been talking about this.

It was Pelagianism, Peter.

So I was hoping you'd explain, because I'm not 100% sure.

I think, was it Pelagius who said that humanity is capable of not, Christians are capable of not sinning.

So they're capable of almost perfection on earth.

Whereas, it's like a scale of works.

You've got people here like, oh, I just need God's grace every day, and I won't do anything.

It's true, we do need God's grace every day, but they're like, they're just going to sit in their bedroom and stare at a wall and not do anything.

Yeah.

Because they believe that God will do everything for them.

Yeah.

And the idea that it is possible not to sin.

Yes.

Whereas it was Augustine, who said that, again, I've only just listened to a podcast on this, so you'll have to correct me.

I think it was Augustine who said that, and the church actually sided with Augustine, at one of the councils, that no actual humanity is incapable of perfection on earth.

So even if you try your best not to sin, which again, as Christians, we should be doing, you're still going to fail, therefore you still will likely incur consequences as a result of that.

So we believe that faith is instilled by God and God alone, by his grace and his mercy and nothing of our own doing.

Whereas plagianism and works are reflective of that, of a life transformed.

Whereas plagianism is your works attain the faith that you get.

So it's your works that will instill a faith, and it is your works, your actions, your ability to not sin, which will sustain your relationship with God.

Which was said to be heresy, I believe.

That is 100% heresy.

Which was at the Council of Niceneum, I think.

And not a biblical concept at all.

Thank you for that.

We're calling these little grenades.

Yeah, exactly.

So that's just another reason why that view is wrong.

Yes.

Okay.

And then there's so many more examples of people who go through suffering.

Paul himself went through suffering, and the disciples themselves.

Again, that's complicated as well, church history, but we know five, at least, were definitely martyrs.

So that is to say that suffering can be expected as a believer.

Jesus himself said, expect trouble in this world.

So it doesn't really get any more clear.

So prosperity gospel needs to be...

Yeah, I was going to say it really kind of goes out on the bridge.

Read the Bible.

No, okay.

On the bus.

So yes, there's that.

Okay, so what are the important things for us to remember, as a result of all these things we've talked about?

Yeah, so whenever we're addressing suffering, some of the things that can help us understand why this is taking place is what we've talked about.

Understanding where it originated from, our sin, choice, prerogative, understanding that it's expected.

But why is it as a believer then?

Because we know that believers can't go through suffering, both biblically and experientially.

We go through it in our lives, we've seen it.

Why does it take place?

What are the reasons behind it?

Is there any reasons, at least?

So that's what we're going to talk about now.

And point number one to remember is that God is sovereign.

And again, we talked about it in the last podcast with Jude.

That is to say that to think of the heavenly courts, that the devil comes in and says, no, Peter, you think that he's righteous, and that you love, and that's an important thing.

God was delighting in Job, and I believe that God delights in all of his children.

So God's delighting in you.

He's boasting about you as his child.

And the devil comes along and says, that's only because of the blessing that you've given him.

You remove that, then you remove Peter's motivation to actually love you.

And so God is sovereign and he allows Satan, the world, circumstance, the things that we go through, he allows that to take place in our lives.

So that's comforting to know that God is sovereign and God is behind it.

And so it means that we can't, it means that we don't feel this lack of control because God's in control.

Which then leads to the second point, which is that in 1 Corinthians 10 13, it says, no temptation has overtaken you, that which is not common to man.

God is faithful and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability.

But with temptation, he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

So God was delighting in his children, and it was actually the devil who came up with the suffering and presented that to God.

And it's God's sovereign approval that allowed that to take place.

And then we need to understand also that with the suffering, with the temptation, with the circumstance, there's always going to be a way of escape.

That is to say that God is always going to be there with you.

Again, you can be equipped and have a comforting hope that you can rely on God in the most difficult of circumstances.

That is, Job was not left alone.

We see later in the story that God came to Job and addressed the questions that he had.

That is to say that God will be there for us in our suffering, which is comforting.

And the third is blessed are they that withstand temptation.

Blessed are those that are persecuted.

So James 1.12.

So it basically says that blessed are those that go through trials and pass the test for they will receive the crown of life.

Crown of life don't actually know the in workings of that and what that actually looks like practically.

So it's good though.

Yes, but it is a reward.

That is to say that the things that we go through here on this earth are temporary.

They're not lasting and they are creating something eternal.

They are instilling an eternal focus and we are getting eternal rewards with the trust that we have in God.

Same with all the biblical characters that we have.

The moment that they trust in God, despite the suffering, despite the circumstance, despite the test, despite the trial that was happening under the sovereign approval of God, there is rewards that will take place in heaven.

Amazing.

Finally, which in this little section, the very thing, the reason why suffering I think takes place and is sadly a necessity in a fallen world is it acts as a mirror.

That is, whenever suffering takes place in our life, it shows our own inability, our own lack of dependency on ourselves because we are finite and we don't have any strength and we can't do anything for ourselves.

And suffering exasperates that reality, like it emphasizes it.

CS.

Lewis said that suffering is God's megaphone.

So suffering screams more than anything, more than anything in our lives.

You need help.

Yeah, and even the world needs help because the final story of the Bible in Revelation, it talks about the entire world being renewed.

So the idea that this whole creation groans for its savior, and that's the final hope that the Bible presents, and no other faith and no atheist can certainly give an answer to.

The best you know for is Elon Musk to make rockets to go to Mars.

But that's just an escape ideology, whereas we have the hope that the savior is coming here to redeem this earth.

Exactly.

So we've listed there that God is sovereign, that God delights in his children, and the circumstances you face are under the sovereign approval of God.

And then we've also talked about how no temptation is greater than, God will not give you a temptation that is greater than what you can actually go through.

God will always provide a way to escape.

God will be there for you.

And that is to say that there is rewards for the trials that we face and overcome.

And also that suffering acts as a mirror and pushes us, forces us to run into the arms of our father.

So there are four more points that I just want to say.

And these are things that we can go through when we're actually going through suffering.

And so if you think of those are the first four that I just summarized, and these are the second batch.

So I'm gonna go to point number one again.

Okay, that's why I summarized.

Suffering teaches us humility.

That is to say, the strength that you have that may be taken away by the suffering that you're going through, perhaps is one that really is personal for me is I love running and I love football and I love being a very active person.

And so whenever I think of what would happen if by some circumstance that was to be removed and I was no longer able to run or play football, by some point, so that would be suffering would bring that about me being only able to play football.

And so the questions that would then arise from that is it was never mine in the first place.

And perhaps it's a loss of a loved one.

It teaches us humility because before they were ever ours, they were gods.

So if you've lost a daughter or son or father or mother, God created them and they were never yours.

They were gods first.

Yeah.

So it's a really hard reality to hit.

And the verse.

We're stewards over them, in a certain sense.

Yes.

And Psalm 24, 1 says, The earth is the lords and the thornless thereof, the world and those who dwell therein.

So that is to say that everything in this earth belongs to God.

And that is not to say whenever we do lose something very close to us, it is difficult.

And again, that's why we said, you're not to be desensitized, but rather equipped to understand and have the humility that God is sovereign.

And this person that was taken from me was God's first.

And the God has complete control here.

And that they belong to God before they belong to me.

And the second one is an eternal perspective.

So 2 Corinthians 4.17 says, for this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison.

The circumstance, the suffering that you're going through is so small and so insignificant, although it may feel huge at that present time, but it is creating in us an eternal weight of glory.

That is to say, something is happening within you that you may not be able to see now, you may not be able to understand, but it is happening, it is preparing you and equipping you maybe for something in the future, but it is definitely preparing you for what is to come.

That is whenever we reign with Jesus on the new earth and new heaven.

Yeah, because whenever Paul talks about the rapture or Christ's return, he always says about it as a comforting thing.

Whereas I think the problem is now in our Western culture, we've removed suffering so much that we actually want to leave this world.

That's why people always get scared when it talks about the coming of Christ.

Whereas if you think about the first century church, they were suffering every single day, persecution, martyrdom.

They were acclimatized to it.

Exactly.

So I think even when we do suffer, it's important to recall that, yes, this is to show you that this world isn't your final resting place.

There's something better to come, like that verse says.

Amazing.

And point number three is that it is instilling in us an expectation and a hope.

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

So that's Philippians 1.21.

And so if you think of, so to die is the worst case scenario.

So that means everything before is covered by this.

So whenever we say to die, everything is covered by that.

So to live is Christ.

That is, why I'm here on earth, is to live for Christ and Christ alone.

That's it.

That's my only purpose.

And whenever I die, it's gain, because I get to be with God, with Jesus and reign with him forever.

And that's a very difficult perspective to have.

Whenever you're going through suffering, whenever you're faced actually with death and with suffering, and it almost becomes more tangible, this verse.

Yeah.

But then also to add to that as well, the Bible does see death as an evil, as an enemy.

So death isn't your friend.

It's just, it's comfort to know that after death you'll be with Christ.

But then the thing is, as well, we remember with Christ's crucifixion, it's almost, well, it is just as important to talk about his resurrection, because as his death, he's just another criminal.

But the fact that he rose again, and showed that he was God, and the fact that we will rise again after our death, that's what we're looking forward to.

It's not some sort of abstract hope to die as game, because the game is eternal life will be raised again from the dead in bodily form.

Yeah, death can no longer hold us, because death could not hold Christ.

And so that's the hope that we have.

And it's, that's what I'm saying, it's tangible and it's real, and it's not some, you know, fairies in the sky type, pie in the sky type stuff.

It's real and it provides comfort in the most difficult circumstances.

Stick on your plate while you wait.

Yeah, and I can attest that with what's going on with our family this year with Dad's Cancer Journey.

The fourth point is, this is the ultimate question, and I myself, like I'm scared of it, but it's, who or what do you love more?

Do you love your mom, your dad, son, daughter, brother, sister, spouse, whatever it is, do you love, or maybe it's a thing like football or something, for me.

Maybe you love that thing or person more than you love Christ.

And whenever it's removed or has the potential to be removed, that's when that question is most poignant or potent.

And Abraham and Isaac is the best illustration of this.

That when Abraham was faced with Isaac being removed, when he was faced with that suffering, that circumstance, here we see everything in place.

We see as a result of sin, the fractured world that we live in, that this was made possible.

And we see as a result of all the things that we've talked about, all these tests were now in place for Abraham.

And the question, the main question was, who do you love more, me or your son Isaac?

And that's the ultimate high calling.

Who do we love more?

Yeah, and God loved us because he sent his son to die for us, the ultimate Abraham and Isaac.

God gave up his son to come and die for us in the same exact same spot as Abraham and Isaac, and he bore our sins so that we could have this eternal hope, and have hope through the suffering.

Exactly.

So I feel like maybe the camera might turn off whenever we just conclude here, but that's okay.

If it does turn off, you know what's happened and that's fine.

We've got that covered.

The podcast won't turn off.

So do you just want to maybe quicker summarize what we've talked about?

Yeah, I'll do my best.

So we've covered what we've done, what we've talked about in our other three parts on suffering.

We talk about what sin was and what it does, and basically separates us from God through the fall and through a broken world, and that God has set up the world that we have consequences for our actions, but there's also eternal judgment.

And suffering is sometimes a consequence for sin, or just a consequence of this broken world.

We also talked about how God made sin possible by making man, but man made sin a reality.

And in terms of the points, we have God is sovereign.

He will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we're able.

Blessed are those that withstand temptation, blessed are they that are persecuted.

God may allow it, but he doesn't.

He's teaching you something through it as well.

And then the final four points were just that it teaches us humility, eternal perspective, expectation and hope.

And then there's quite a final question we have to ask ourselves is who do we love more?

Is it God or is it those around us or some other aspect of our lives that we like to enjoy?

Yeah, I think you did quite well in some ways.

You kind of threw that on me there, I was really expecting that.

Yeah, that was good though, that was good.

I felt like I talked loads in the...

But yeah, it's good to see what people remember and what people take from it.

So yeah, that concludes the whole area on suffering.

I feel like we've done a very comprehensive thing there with four different podcasts on it.

So and again, any questions that people have, they can get in contact and we'll see on the next podcast.